Much of this comes down to the social aspects of guilds. You may have a few secretly bad seeds here and there but most people want to contribute to progression. There are different solutions to how this can be handled. You let people spend their DKP how they want, someone loots 1 or 2 items they dont need, and they get ostracized, but you let people sell gear that gets replaced. You can make a greed multiplier for DKP for people who have a ton of dkp and nothing to spend it on. This would have to be coupled with a DKP cap. You allow people to trade sell items for DKP to other members, dont know how good of an idea that is. Or it stays the same and people just eat their bidding costs, which kind of sucks because you could sell gear for more character improvements. A lot of this should fall on class leaders, I mean, isn't that what they are here for? I don't see much purpose for a class leader if they don't really have to make any decisions.

I believe that everyone should do whatever is beneficial for the guild number one and i believe that would be letting whoever gets the most benefit out of a drop bid on that item. For example I don't believe a int caster should be able to bid on a CoF over a melee class. If someone spends DKP on an item in my opinion that item should be able to be sold or passed to an alt if and only if they have upgraded that item. Trading that item to someone in the guild that would be an upgrade for them would be a beneficial way of doing it but i believe they should pay the same amount of DKP that the original owner spent. I think looting items that can be sold for profit of the guild is a good idea but it should not take precedence over items that are upgrades for players. Again i think the most beneficial thing is to put the guild progression first and if anyone doesn't like that then they will be weeded out and find a guild that allows the things they are looking for. 

Honestly, I was intending to express my opinions on these matters but I've decided I dont really care. I just want to know what are the rules. I'll just say the following:

As to who gets to bid on what, I've always felt that you earned your dkp and you ought to be able to spend it how you see fit. But I know that might be a minority opinion...

As to selling items. If the decision is yes, and I think it is?, then please make a list. RBB, CoF, wr bags all dropped in classic and still drop in kunark. "Past expansion" is too vague here.

My lassaiz-faire attitude notwithstanding, I'd probably leave a guild in which everyone were cutthroat mercantilists.

I'm against any dkp reimbursal programs. This guild gives out a great deal as it is and I expect inflationary bidding very soon. Every raid without something good dropping for me to bid on might see my dkp worth less and less. If I'm holding out for a great item while my competitors are spending willy-nilly, my sacrifice is just ashes if they can recoup all their points just before we kill the mob I'm waiting for. But if you do institute something, do it soon.

OK opening this up again for discussion until 7-8-19. We want to hear what you have to say on this. We are trying to do what is best for the guild while not pissing off the majority of the members.  These are the questions we want your input on:


1:  Who gets to bid on what items? We have SEVERAL members who are requesting to bid on items that isn't best for their class but is in their eyes an upgrade for their character. For example a wizard who wants a CoF for the hitpoints.  How do you think the guild should handle this? Especially if a melee wants it too. 

2:  What items can be sold? We have people who spent their own money buying items which has later dropped on a raid. Do we allow them to spend DKP to buy the item to resell? Do we allow them to roll on epic pieces they bought themselves? For example I spent 20kr buying my RBB and 15kr on my Red Dragon Scale, am I allowed to spend DKP to buy a RBB to resell to get some of my KR back or can I roll on a Dragon Scale against other people who could actually use it for their epic? What about the Gloves of CT that is an epic but is also a good item in slot? If someone buys it do they have to spend dkp on it or can they roll on it?  What about items that can be sold but no one in the raid needs now like the Eye of Inny? It sells for 2kr do we allow people to spend dkp on it to sell or do we loot it for the guild bank and keep the money in guild?  If we are allowing people to bid on loot to sell whats stopping a raider from bidding on items to sell that a member may actually use and be an upgrade for.

3: How do we handle it when people bid DKP on an item then get an upgrade to that item? For example someone gets an RBB then upgrades to a CoF. Neither of the items can currently be sold since they are from current expansion mobs. Do we allow them to sell the item in guild only?  Or do we make them sit on the item until velious?  Do we allow them to give it back to the guild for a small dkp refund?

4:  Finally how do we enforce these rules? Do we require people to show us items to prove they didn't sell them? And what if they did what is the punishment for them doing it?

These are the questions we want answered and your input on. We want specifics not broad general statements. I think the majority of players wants what is best for the guild but there is always those few that want to just look out for themselves. And what you may think is best for someones character may not be what they think is best.  This is what we are trying to decide so please if you have suggestion nows the time to post.

I am not about greed. These rules promote that. I have the best attendance in the guild. I have been forced to pass on items I can actually use because i was told it was in the best interest of the guild. Losing items to those that have poor attendance just because a certain class may be stronger if they get that item. I have swallowed that pill for a long time. Now I have to lose items I need so others can sell them, Just too much for me. 

1. Rolling on things like CoF as a caster is greed IMO. This will be used for an alt or sold. NBG. Melee gets preference. I do not lke the current way of raider>member>alt dkp system. One person, one dkp. If you have alts or boxes they should share the same pool as your main. If no one in a raid needs an item that is from previous era it should be able to be sold. If they get something from current era they should wait to sell it or sell it in guild only until next era. 
2. If you spend your own time or money on an item to better your character, you shouldn't be able to bid on that item in raids, unless no one else in that raid needs it as an upgrade. You already have it.If no one needs, it should be able to be rolled by anyone.
3. This is the tough one. I think if you upgrade an item and both items are in current era, you can either sell the other item to a guildie or wait until next era to sell to anyone.
4. We are not babysitters. However I think if someone knowingly breaks the rules, possible demotion to member up to removal if multiple offenses. 

There will be no system put in place that will please everyone. But those like me, who have to wait behind so many others to get an item, I don't want to lose an upgrade to a caster simply due to greed. We are opening that pandora's box and the guild will progress slower due to the greed of a few. 

In velious there are so many items that are all/all and have stats that will be good for a lot of different classes. It will be different then because obviously that is an upgrade to so many. But again, I can't say it enough. Casters shouldnt lose a roll on an item they need as an upgrade or that is BIS to a melle anymore than a melee should lose an item they need or that is BIS to a caster. 

Last edited by Percivel (7/04/2019 4:56 am)

One short thought about guild rules in general. Any rule that is implemented should be done so with the betterment of the guild in mind. In many cases this will correspond with the betterment of individuals, but not always. In the situation that arose last night this was the case. The betterment of the guild would have had the item go to a tank, but again, this is just one mans opinion.

It's a separate discussion but the only thing holding us back from VP is the competitive time sink of key parts. I doubt most are willing to put in the 30 hours + just to get keyed.
 

***Following is not directed toward anyone***

The Heroes of Sword and Boards DKP system works pretty well, in my opinion.  Our only issue comes with items classified as ALL/ALL and the inconsistency in dealing with them. The issues have been:

1. Who was able and was not able/allowed to bid on items in the past.
2. Who will and won't be allowed to bid on items in the future.
3.  Why changes happen and the reasoning shaping the changes.

This seems to be a fairly unpopular opinion, but ALL/ALL items from past expansions need to be open for all classes for DKP bidding.  When an expansion does launch, new, comparable and better items release with it. (I understand some loot stays viable for a long time). This is the nature of ALL/ALL high value items.  Regulating them is an issue with constant drama attached.  Treating them as ALL/ALL will eliminate a sense of entitlement and make people truly consider how they spend DKP in mass quantities.  

Addressing best class to use ALL/ALL items.  There is a strong opinion that certain  ALL/ALL items are best for just tanks or just casters and otherwise it is wasted, given to a nonpreferred class. I find these remarks ultimately self serving, and do nothing but direct loot towards one's self, alienating raiders and guildmates, ultimately causing drama and resentment. 

Arguing guild progression on a raid that was cleared months ago, also doesn't seem to be a very valid argument either.  Arguing future progression when we can simply complete the same raid with a another chance at the item makes it even less of an argument for guild progression.  

Also rules have been posted on this website since the guild has formed with little change to them and with a clear reminder Guild Leaders may use their discretion to distribute loot and make "on the fly decisions".  

Just my feelings on this.  







 

I don't believe anyone's intent was turn the guild into a krono chase. If the wording used that the Shield of the Immaculate could be sold offended some, that is regrettable. This was the intention and it was not a rule change. 

The original loot rules banned selling any dkp item during the expansion in which it was first dropped. The shield was no longer included in that restriction.

If an item can be sold, is it fair that only one class can bid on it? I am not in favor of selling dkp items period, but how do we handle this? (Btw, there is no indication that the winning bidder last night intends to sell the shield. Having a instant clicky cure disease item on a healer is not a bad thing.)

The recent example of a melee getting a no-drop haste item from PoSky after spending all his dkp on a haste belt brought up new questions. The belt was not obtained with the intention to sell it but was now unneeded. Any rule other than allowing that player to do what he wished with the old haste belt would be unenforceable and just lead to more problems.

I personally prefer that only toons who can and will use the items bid dkp for them. A suggestion late last night was to require that an item should be usable and a "plausible upgrade" for the bidding toon. Example: if a toon already has a PoSky haste item (41%), they couldn't bid on a lesser haste item.

(Separately, the arguments over BIS for x class are largely just BS. Such BIS judgements are largely subjective.)

It was also suggested last night that no toon be allowed to dkp buy more that 1 of any item (except non-lore bracers, rings, earrings, or consumables). I am in favor of this. So then, what will we do when all the raiders and members (mains) have haste belts for example? 

The officers discussion last night made clear that nothing is final. Input and discussion is encouraged from all. 
 

I asked last night, and I still stand by the question. What was so Wong with the rules as they were written? We were operating under a very clear need before greed manner, and this change, while it seems small, seems to change that ideaology.

1. Nobody should be permitted to bid DKP for the purpose of selling an item. Period. I think most people understood this to be the guild rule and to the extent the rules as written differ they should be changed. People routinely heard during raids that we don’t bid DKP to sell items and if that was discovered there would be consequences. There was no mention in raid discussions about “well, unless it is from a previous era,” unless Saturn is in its lunar phase, or the moon is out in full this day. If guild leadership always contemplated that DKP could be used to take items from people who could use them as an upgrade and then turn around and sell those items - that was a mistake and should be rectified immediately to make it clear that need before greed is what this guild is about and nobody is allowed to use DKP with the intent to sell the acquired item. An exception can be discussed and made if an item is not an upgrade / needed for the people at the raid.

2. I agree with Armor and others that something like the shield is of course a tank item and should be bid upon by tanks. I don’t think there is any objectively reasonable argument that a Druid, caster, etc. should take that item over tanks who actually need and will use it. That is how we did it before and how it should be done moving forward. Whether an item is keyed all/all is not dispositive. What matters is objective reasonableness. There are items (CoF, etc.) that are generally understood to be incredible upgrades for particular classes that dramatically improve a guild’s abilities to progress and otherwise become more effective. It seems some want to pretend this isn’t the case and that there is this huge confusion that the shield for example is really just as useful and important to all classes because it is all/all. People know better.  And this is coming from a monk. I have a good argument that the AC and disease removal is incredible for a puller. However, I go through a simple (and honest) analysis about who really benefits most and what will help the guild on raids. And having that shield on a tank who is getting beat on nonstop is where the item belongs and which will help out most. Therefore, absent the rule change last night where we all were bidding, I would not take it over a tank who needed it. This issue may require more discussion as more all/all items come into play but an item being all/all should not be the deciding factor (or much of one at all for that matter). What should matter is what classes should be bidding based on a reasonable person standard which, if people are being honest, should not be very controversial.

3. If someone uses DKP to acquire an item for use (and not to sell) but later acquired an upgrade they should be able to sell it if they choose. The reason is simple - they did not acquire the original item to sell. And I agree it would be unreasonable and unduly burdensome to try and place restrictions on items that someone may have owned at that point for weeks or more. Bottom line - see comment no. 1 above - the golden rule should be nobody can use DKP with the intent to sell unless the people at the raid don’t need the item and everyone agrees the item will be available to sell and bid upon by everyone for that purpose with complete transparency. If the guild wants to keep that old item in the guild perhaps there can be a discussion on how that could happen (reimburse the person for previous spend for the item, etc.).

4. I am very concerned that the guild is underestimating how much this issue can result in people leaving. I think the large majority of this guild believes you should not use DKP to take items from those who need them with the intent to sell the item. Conversely, I believe people who want to bid DKP to pad their Krono account are in the large minority. At the end of the day, the guild leadership needs to decide which side of the issue they plan to fall. Personally, j am extremely surprised this is becoming a dividing issue. It seems obvious that this guild was never about using DKP to get items to sell. Especially when others in the guild need those items for their characters who raid and help the guild. A system set up to the contrary is going to encourage and draw the type of guild members many loathe and don’t want to be around while distancing those who put the needs of others when it comes to items ahead of their own Krono wallets.

I disagree with this change because I think it is negative for the guild:
-It has the potential to divert loot away from classes that STILL benefit for accomplishing more as a guild
-could divert gear from our raids into the market or other guilds (granted its TLP and there is not as much of a strict competition)
-direclty or indirectly approves selling items that are potentially still NEED items

1) Archetype restrictions for key items (ex CoF, RBB, white dragon scale cloak) in their era:
If we are keeping this then i suggest modifying the rules in this way:
-Items stay restricted through at least through the 2nd following era (Velious for Cloak of Flames, White Dragon Cloak, Amulet of Necropotence)
- Restricted items need to have minimum purchase prices while still restricted (see #2)
-If we are still raiding content as an official raid then literally NOTHING has changed on Day 1 of Kunark and the items should be to gear up the raid force so we can do bigger and better things.
-If we only gear 1-2 top tier tanks with AC gear and good weapons or 5-6 melees with a haste item and then open it up, we will be hamstringing our future
-We want to avoid having 3rd and 4th main tanks and Knight off tanks fall behind in gear, and cannot fill in when the are still expected to fulfill main tank and raid level DPS
-Tanks and melees also likely could not ever compete with the massive caster DKP pool until caster loot drops increase, sorry guys but there are just way more casters and less caster loot
-Also, some raids such as Traknon, we have a short time to farm and the items are rare (such as class BP)

2) Selling of DKP items and DKP minimum purchase price
-Selling items that were bid on with DKP should be highly discouraged in the rules, if not prohibited even.
-DKP is a system designed for one purpose - to fairly distribute loot to those that contribute and attend the most
-Any selling of sought after items creates low morale and also hurts guild progression
-My impression of HoSB is that the guild is not raiding to enrich its members, but to give them a chance to consume the hardest content
-However, the problem is you can't police this and you cant enforce this either, so you need a system that self regulates
-Finally, if there is a special situation such as Rizen's haste belt, selling an item that can be approved or not approved by guild leadership on a case by case basis, but generally I'd say NOT.
-I agree with getting to spend your DKP how you want, if you want a marginal upgrade more power to you, but we still have rules. And the guild does not owe you Krono in return for your DKP.
-Again no way to POLICE this, but there are ways you could have ways of imposing consequences. Demotion, DKP penalty, or guild removal... so there are ways to enforce rules. Otherwise why have rules at all.

Here's how I would change the system to make make it fair and self regulating:

1) DKP minimum price on Tradeable DKP items (doesn't have to apply to NO DROP, but could at a lower amount)
-Eliminates bids of 1 dkp on an item you dont really need but could sell (allowed or not, assume it could be sold)
-It eliminates collusion (Telling someone you'll bid 1 dkp on this they get the next one for 1 dkp as well)
-Creates a reasonable and fair DKP sink
-Either a predetermined amount or an average of prior bids
-Examples (not set in stone by any means): CoF = 200 or 300 DKP minimum, or Venril Legs 250 DKP minimum, Trak BP 500 DKP minimum

2)One item per character restriction- guild will mostly self police this, people keep track of hot items and where they are going

3)Drop raider/ member distinction; allow the DKP system work, again this will self regulate, this will also help in recruitment and attendance. A newly joined raider with 50 DKP will not be winning anything of significance right away.
-This current system allows for DKP disparity and makes some guildies second class citizens.
-Raiders feel entitled to get an item 1 DKP, and then at the same time complain that they have too much DKP, while members are left out to dry.
-If members have enough DKP to compete it means they've been showing up and they deserve a shot.
-Epic drops still can be handled as /random 1000, if you attend more you get more rolls OR have a loot order determined by the class leader and drop the raider facade that creates and air of superiority
-Keep the raider/ alt distinction, alts and boxes should not bid against mains ever

4) DKP bidding to reimburse yourself for an item purchased
-Probably shouldnt be allowed, but if it is:
-If an item is being opened up to bid for purposes to sell, even if that is to reimburse yourself, it needs to be open to EVERYONE to bid and not restricted by class or rank
-If the guild leaderships decides to reimburse someone for an item then it can be reimbursed from guild bank funds that are collected every raid, if there is not enough money in the guild bank, then no item , that simple.
-If the guild bank needs to be reimbursed the next time it drops then they can claim that item for that purpose

-Fictional example: if you buy a dragon scale with your own money, the guild does not now OWE you a dragon scale, once you have it, it is no longer a NEED item. If one person is allowed to bid GREED, then it needs to then bid against everyone else.

-However, if the guild decides to purchase a particular item because its not dropping then they can and should do that. ONLY if that item is bought expressly at guild leaderships request. Otherwise, If you purchase an item on your own  volition, fine but that is your decision and your responsibility.

-Actual example: A bard drum that was purchased for 1 dkp with express purpose of selling
- I understand where this is coming from, but it needs to be fair to everyone else too
- Otherwise it creates and encourages a system of DKP gaming
- Way it can be abused is you can buy an item, have it first, wait for it to go for 1 DKP, never have to spend much DKP, and still get my money back eventually and still have way more DKP than those that bid on it fairly.
- That person will then have more DKP than everyone else the next time a new item drops.
-Allowing DKP bids like this will self regulate selling and again help drain some excess DKP from the rosters
-This this will encourage people to bid fair amounts of DKP for the item if they do wish to sell it

-If this does not sound fair, then it shouldnt be done at all, guild loots all tradeable NON-NEED items to sell for guild funds and then determines as a guild what items are guild necessities to spend guild funds on.

I think these are some easily implemented and not too complicated ways of handling these hot button issues.
Thanks for being willing to listen to our feedback.
Appreciate the job that Burta, Nimzo, Kazu, and Burnberry do to keep the loot system as fair as it can be.

Audubon



 

Last edited by Audubon (7/04/2019 4:03 pm)

Nimzo wrote:

Audubon, Burta posted before you with updates to the dkp bidding rules. 

He did NOT say anywhere that only 1 or 2 tanks or other melee would get geared. That has never been the guild's philosophy.
He said NOTHING that included casters bidding on melee focused loot items. There may be some discussion yet on which category additional items fall into. 

The Raider - Member distinction was setup in part for epic drops.
How many times does a first time raider get to win a rare epic drop while those who have been raiding from the server start have to wait? Random does not mean fair; it means random. This happened multiple times. 

Should we set higher minimum prices for some drops? I think this would be unpopular, but consider the player who is bid up on his BP only to see the next BP drop go for 1 dkp to the person who bid him up. 
 

The Raider > member > alt is also a way to separate who gets to attend raids and what happens when 30 of one class shows up wanting to raid. We have it so eventually only raiders will be allowed on the raid when we get the numbers. 

I am the first one to admit I have not raided extensively like some nor have I ever been any guild leadership position so take my comments as coming an average person that likes EQ and likes to raid.

The one thing that I have heard that I truly agree with that is not in the current DKP rules as that each person should only be allowed to win a particular item ONCE - IE One COF, AON, bags etc etc. We are assuming the items won by DKP bids are used by the mains (and I think everyone is feels pretty strongly about this).

Secondly I do think there should be some sort of bid minimums for items. You can always bid more but there needs to be some baseline for items else items will eventually go for 1 dkp while we continue to rack up the dkp points with nothing to spend it on. (The alternate is to have some sort of DKP decay which I really hate this idea - there needs to be a way to use up earned DKP in a realistic way or it is going to get out of hand with people have a rediculous amount of DKP earned)

As far as who can bid on items - I have really mixed feelings about this and am not strongly in either camp.
I want to ensure our raiders are geared appropriately ie melee get melee gear and casters get caster gear, but there are several items that can be claimed to be great for all classes and all of us raiders have earned the right to bid DKP for those items. (With no minimum a Shield of the Accumulate could theoretically go for 1 dkp if it is limited to warrior only) I don't think this is the intention either. So if there is a minimum bid say 1000 for the shield then warrior should be able to bid first and if they want it they get dibs but still spend the dkp if they don't it that badly then well it opens up to everyone.

As far as selling loots - I know it was in the original rules that it was okay to sell past expansions loots. 
I think myself and most of us think this is really not the purpose of raiding. The items earned are for us to use and progress and become stronger to obtain even better items. Now once you upgrade something  then you should be free to trade it or sell it. Its your you earned it with your DKP. (Now if we limit to one item per person many probably will keep these items since they cannot earn them again and then if you had a minimum bid most people are not going to bid on items that they know they are going to upgrade shortly and then turn around and sell it)

So one item earned per person and a minimum bid could go a long ways in "correcting" things.

The problem with minimum bid is that it forces dkp spent on loot that is now subpar - so maybe the desirable stuf gets the mimimum and the not so much stuff can be done at 1 DKP. (or it just rots)

I am one of several that will bring a box(alt) to raid just because I can - its always my lowbie bard that can sing mana song for my cleric so I think there a small justification in that however I do pickup alt loot for 1dkp.
Right or Wrong I don't know and I have no problem not bringing the box to the raid at all. If we ever get close to full I will be the first to drop the box.

If anyone has a problem with my box let me know in game to discuss.

The game constantly changes
Your class constantly changes
Your skill and playstyle constantly changes
Your gear constantly changes
Your raid composition constantly changes
Therefore, your loot policies must constantly change.