Heroes of Swords and Boards

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6/29/2019 5:50 pm  #1

DKP and Looting Discussion Thread Please Post By 7-8-19

OK everyone here's the spot to post about DKP and loot. As officers we've talked about it for awhile and want to give everyone a chance to chime in before we make the final call.

The first thing is what do we do with the DKP bidding system. Who gets to bid on what? We will be keeping the Raiders have 1st dibs followed by members followed by Alts but who get to bid on what items? As people start maxing out primary stats they are now wanting to work on secondary stats. So for example what do we do when a wizard wants to bid on a CoF when it's still an upgrade for a warrior as well? If we allow whoever wants to bid to bid then we will eventually get someone crying that it's more of an upgrade for them and it's not fair. If we restrict bidding then we get the people who want to argue about what class it's best for.

The second thing we are trying to come to a general agreement on is what can and can't be sold... The problem is if we allow anything to be sold then you will get people looking to loot just to make money. I have enough DKP right now to basically buy the next 3 or 4 CoF's that drop and sell them for 12kr each. I know of a few people who wouldn't hesitate to use dkp on items they would claim is for an alt but really just sell them for a profit. If we limit it like we have been and only allow people to sell items from the previous expansions then we get people who get upgrades and end up sitting on the loot until the price tanks. They also cry that we're trying to dictate what they do with the items they already spent dkp on. Is this something they risk for blowing dkp to be one of the 1st to get a drop then having to wait to the next expansion before selling? Also how do we handle the request we had four people wanting to bid on items that they already have but they bought on their own? again using me as an example I bought an RBB and a red dragon scale on my own should I be allowed to roll are bid dkp if these items drop to resell to get some of my money back.

Again not an easy solution to either of these questions and they both go together as one directly effects the other. How do we keep it fair while not allowing people to abuse the system and get items just to sell when others in the guild could actually use them?

Finally how do people feel about us looting items to sell for the guild bank? Port stones and pots are not cheap for raids. What are some items that we could loot to sell to help offset these cost?

We want to hear your thoughts and suggestion but this is ultimately a officers and leaders decision. We will talk it over and get a new revised DKP rules posted ASAP. Thanks.

Last edited by Burta (7/03/2019 7:29 pm)


6/29/2019 6:35 pm  #2

Re: DKP and Looting Discussion Thread Please Post By 7-8-19

Much of this comes down to the social aspects of guilds. You may have a few secretly bad seeds here and there but most people want to contribute to progression. There are different solutions to how this can be handled. You let people spend their DKP how they want, someone loots 1 or 2 items they dont need, and they get ostracized, but you let people sell gear that gets replaced. You can make a greed multiplier for DKP for people who have a ton of dkp and nothing to spend it on. This would have to be coupled with a DKP cap. You allow people to trade sell items for DKP to other members, dont know how good of an idea that is. Or it stays the same and people just eat their bidding costs, which kind of sucks because you could sell gear for more character improvements. A lot of this should fall on class leaders, I mean, isn't that what they are here for? I don't see much purpose for a class leader if they don't really have to make any decisions.


6/30/2019 1:52 am  #3

Re: DKP and Looting Discussion Thread Please Post By 7-8-19

I think you should do what helps the guild the most. If someone has an item that they cant use like Rizen, what if the guild were to purchase it from him, and if people need then auction it for dkp. If theres an item that's valuable that no one needs ie- the drum from naggy the other night, couldnt the guild just take it,,,sell it and buy other  upgrades that are needed then auction those off. 

Also I think it's important to recognize what I think the spirit of the rule is. To me there is a vast difference between someone buy a AON and selling it the next day and what happened to Rizen. When he bought the rbb im sure he figured he'd have it till velious, since we've seen what 1 other of those sky diamonds? and that was when we farmed him for 17 hours a week. It was pretty unlikely he was going to see one.


6/30/2019 4:04 pm  #4

Re: DKP and Looting Discussion Thread Please Post By 7-8-19

I believe that everyone should do whatever is beneficial for the guild number one and i believe that would be letting whoever gets the most benefit out of a drop bid on that item. For example I don't believe a int caster should be able to bid on a CoF over a melee class. If someone spends DKP on an item in my opinion that item should be able to be sold or passed to an alt if and only if they have upgraded that item. Trading that item to someone in the guild that would be an upgrade for them would be a beneficial way of doing it but i believe they should pay the same amount of DKP that the original owner spent. I think looting items that can be sold for profit of the guild is a good idea but it should not take precedence over items that are upgrades for players. Again i think the most beneficial thing is to put the guild progression first and if anyone doesn't like that then they will be weeded out and find a guild that allows the things they are looking for. 


7/01/2019 8:06 am  #5

Re: DKP and Looting Discussion Thread Please Post By 7-8-19

This is the way i see it. I feel loot should go to who can leverage it the best, so i am unconcerned with loot restrictions in general. But the reality is people should be allowed to pursue loot as they see fit or they will move on to some place that they can achieve their goal. Is any given piece of loot worth losing a member over? Who cares if a caster gets a cloak of flames when we are getting a few a week and will be replaced next expansion? Who cares if a caster beat a melee and spends 300 dkp on the cloak, the melee gets the next one for less!
And what happens when most are 60 and geared? Do you want to raid on our crop of lvl 46 alts? Or you want to raid with our mains and let them twink alts with unused DKP?

Last edited by Jools (7/01/2019 11:13 am)


7/02/2019 2:37 am  #6

Re: DKP and Looting Discussion Thread Please Post By 7-8-19

Honestly, I was intending to express my opinions on these matters but I've decided I dont really care. I just want to know what are the rules. I'll just say the following:

As to who gets to bid on what, I've always felt that you earned your dkp and you ought to be able to spend it how you see fit. But I know that might be a minority opinion...

As to selling items. If the decision is yes, and I think it is?, then please make a list. RBB, CoF, wr bags all dropped in classic and still drop in kunark. "Past expansion" is too vague here.

My lassaiz-faire attitude notwithstanding, I'd probably leave a guild in which everyone were cutthroat mercantilists.

I'm against any dkp reimbursal programs. This guild gives out a great deal as it is and I expect inflationary bidding very soon. Every raid without something good dropping for me to bid on might see my dkp worth less and less. If I'm holding out for a great item while my competitors are spending willy-nilly, my sacrifice is just ashes if they can recoup all their points just before we kill the mob I'm waiting for. But if you do institute something, do it soon.


7/03/2019 2:34 pm  #7

Re: DKP and Looting Discussion Thread Please Post By 7-8-19

I have waited to post on this because I wanted to make sure my response correctly conveyed my feelings. First off, my belief is that everything we do needs to be in the best interest of the guild first and foremost. If a select few individuals do not like the rules as they are stated, maybe they aren’t the best fit for the group. A guild is more than just the sum total of its members, the social aspect of it is one of the hardest things to maintain. It’s also important to realize that no matter what is done, we will be unable to please everyone.
That all being said, at this point, we all know our classes well enough to understand what items we should be targeting as upgrades. Both in raids, and in groups. I personally keep a list of items I want on hand, as well as, where they drop and who drops them. For raids, I place a value on items that are upgrades for me and target them specifically for those price points. If I get outbid, oh well. I also know that there are more than one item that is an upgrade for those slots, it’s why I place a value on them.
DKP as a system rewards players who are the most present in raids. This way those who are always around have the best chance at getting items that will help the guild progress faster. I have a problem with refunding points after they are spent. I also have a problem with letting an item walk out of the guild just so someone can make a few bucks, especially when it would be a huge upgrade to someone else that would help us accomplish our goals faster and easier. I have handed out and down more items than I can count over the past months, all with the express purpose of helping us achieve newer and greater things. I know that this is not everyone’s mindset, but it should be the guilds mindset.
I know this post didn’t really make any suggestions, but I felt like I needed to make my thoughts known. If anyone has anything they would like to speak with me about in regards to it, please come to me in game, or in discord pm’s. I am always happy to talk.


7/03/2019 8:11 pm  #8

Re: DKP and Looting Discussion Thread Please Post By 7-8-19

OK opening this up again for discussion until 7-8-19. We want to hear what you have to say on this. We are trying to do what is best for the guild while not pissing off the majority of the members.  These are the questions we want your input on:

1:  Who gets to bid on what items? We have SEVERAL members who are requesting to bid on items that isn't best for their class but is in their eyes an upgrade for their character. For example a wizard who wants a CoF for the hitpoints.  How do you think the guild should handle this? Especially if a melee wants it too. 

2:  What items can be sold? We have people who spent their own money buying items which has later dropped on a raid. Do we allow them to spend DKP to buy the item to resell? Do we allow them to roll on epic pieces they bought themselves? For example I spent 20kr buying my RBB and 15kr on my Red Dragon Scale, am I allowed to spend DKP to buy a RBB to resell to get some of my KR back or can I roll on a Dragon Scale against other people who could actually use it for their epic? What about the Gloves of CT that is an epic but is also a good item in slot? If someone buys it do they have to spend dkp on it or can they roll on it?  What about items that can be sold but no one in the raid needs now like the Eye of Inny? It sells for 2kr do we allow people to spend dkp on it to sell or do we loot it for the guild bank and keep the money in guild?  If we are allowing people to bid on loot to sell whats stopping a raider from bidding on items to sell that a member may actually use and be an upgrade for.

3: How do we handle it when people bid DKP on an item then get an upgrade to that item? For example someone gets an RBB then upgrades to a CoF. Neither of the items can currently be sold since they are from current expansion mobs. Do we allow them to sell the item in guild only?  Or do we make them sit on the item until velious?  Do we allow them to give it back to the guild for a small dkp refund?

4:  Finally how do we enforce these rules? Do we require people to show us items to prove they didn't sell them? And what if they did what is the punishment for them doing it?

These are the questions we want answered and your input on. We want specifics not broad general statements. I think the majority of players wants what is best for the guild but there is always those few that want to just look out for themselves. And what you may think is best for someones character may not be what they think is best.  This is what we are trying to decide so please if you have suggestion nows the time to post.

     Thread Starter

7/04/2019 1:07 am  #9

Re: DKP and Looting Discussion Thread Please Post By 7-8-19

my 2cp:

All functions of the guild should be supportive of the guilds mission, which, on a progression server is to progress.

A simple system is the best option...

- DKP Bidding is for usage. Raider before member before extraneous.
Raider bidding should only be allowed based on usage of the item, if you can't use it, you don't get to bid on it. Allowing anyone to bid on things because theyre a raider is exactly the same as bidding for an alt, which we already do not allow. However, once raiders have items, it goes to members, after members to extraneous - and this extraneous rank of bidding should include people who are just trying to spend their DKP for sales or alts or anything else.***

- Bidding for sales should be prohibited only if Raiders and Members are available who want the item and are bidding - There is no way to police this, sure. But unless we want to be a guild of paranoia, we cannot spend too much time over-complicating this issue with policy.  If people are found to have bid for sales over other raiders, punishments of whatever kind can be dealt with by the leaders, but personally I do not think this will be a very big issue, and should certainly not be any kind of point of stress or struggle. Shit heads are everywhere, but we should be far more concerned with cultivating the culture within our guild that would promote goodness, rather than focusing on and stressing about small percentages of bullshit.

- Sales after upgrades should not be prohibited, no reimbursement policies should ever be employed, and sale of gear that no one else wanted should also not be prohibited. 

*** I personally feel we should be doing away with the concept of Alts gathering their own DKP. A person is a person. Boxes are effectively gathering X times the amount of additional DKP simply because they can box more than others.  If you want to purchase things for alts, it should be dealt with the same as people who want extraneous items for any reason, and should all be handled by bidding from the PERSON, not the individual toon. 



7/04/2019 4:13 am  #10

Re: DKP and Looting Discussion Thread Please Post By 7-8-19

I am not about greed. These rules promote that. I have the best attendance in the guild. I have been forced to pass on items I can actually use because i was told it was in the best interest of the guild. Losing items to those that have poor attendance just because a certain class may be stronger if they get that item. I have swallowed that pill for a long time. Now I have to lose items I need so others can sell them, Just too much for me. 

1. Rolling on things like CoF as a caster is greed IMO. This will be used for an alt or sold. NBG. Melee gets preference. I do not lke the current way of raider>member>alt dkp system. One person, one dkp. If you have alts or boxes they should share the same pool as your main. If no one in a raid needs an item that is from previous era it should be able to be sold. If they get something from current era they should wait to sell it or sell it in guild only until next era. 
2. If you spend your own time or money on an item to better your character, you shouldn't be able to bid on that item in raids, unless no one else in that raid needs it as an upgrade. You already have it.If no one needs, it should be able to be rolled by anyone.
3. This is the tough one. I think if you upgrade an item and both items are in current era, you can either sell the other item to a guildie or wait until next era to sell to anyone.
4. We are not babysitters. However I think if someone knowingly breaks the rules, possible demotion to member up to removal if multiple offenses. 

There will be no system put in place that will please everyone. But those like me, who have to wait behind so many others to get an item, I don't want to lose an upgrade to a caster simply due to greed. We are opening that pandora's box and the guild will progress slower due to the greed of a few. 

In velious there are so many items that are all/all and have stats that will be good for a lot of different classes. It will be different then because obviously that is an upgrade to so many. But again, I can't say it enough. Casters shouldnt lose a roll on an item they need as an upgrade or that is BIS to a melle anymore than a melee should lose an item they need or that is BIS to a caster. 

Last edited by Percivel (7/04/2019 4:56 am)


7/04/2019 7:21 am  #11

Re: DKP and Looting Discussion Thread Please Post By 7-8-19

  Some random thoughts on this issue. If you are a grammar nazi i suggest you quit reading now!

    The way we do DKP here is unique to me in that if you wait long enough (especially for single class items) your going to get it for 1dkp. this allows an individual to store many many DKP to spend on high value rare items. This is unlike any other dkp system i have used and the rather large DKP pools some people have seem to be a byproduct of the system.

  If you get a legitimate upgrade for an item on a raid you spent your DKP do whatever ya want with it. This should be a non issue. If that person wants to sell to a guildy great good on them if not o well.

  The guild bank, what does the guild bank fund? Port stones, some resist jewelry i have seen but i have seen VERY few pots distributed. I realize i am most likely missing alot but as far as all the eyes of innorok  slime bloods etc, bank has a few by all means why are we keeping people from greed bidding dkp on this stuff?
  As far as certain classes not having anything to spend dkp on or not wanting to spend dkp on marginal upgrades. Thats just the way the game works this expansion. Vellious will give plenty of opportunities to spend that dkp.

   As far as the open to all classes stuff i think we have several camps. One camp is in the "if you can wear it you can bid on it" camp . Other camp is in the " X class (mostly tank it seems due to the nature of the game) should get as it helps the guild the most camp. And finally the " I came to all these raids earned my dkp if i want to buy something and sell it to upgrade other gear i should be able to " camp. These views do not mix and if we are going to change from what we have been doing (look at the history of that hate shield) we should let people clearly know what the plan is so they can adjust accordingly. I personally fall under the best for the guild camp but I can see why other people would follow a different camp.


7/04/2019 7:26 am  #12

Re: DKP and Looting Discussion Thread Please Post By 7-8-19

One short thought about guild rules in general. Any rule that is implemented should be done so with the betterment of the guild in mind. In many cases this will correspond with the betterment of individuals, but not always. In the situation that arose last night this was the case. The betterment of the guild would have had the item go to a tank, but again, this is just one mans opinion.


7/04/2019 7:27 am  #13

Re: DKP and Looting Discussion Thread Please Post By 7-8-19


Last edited by Vashazir (8/10/2019 6:55 pm)


7/04/2019 8:21 am  #14

Re: DKP and Looting Discussion Thread Please Post By 7-8-19

It's a separate discussion but the only thing holding us back from VP is the competitive time sink of key parts. I doubt most are willing to put in the 30 hours + just to get keyed.


7/04/2019 9:21 am  #15

Re: DKP and Looting Discussion Thread Please Post By 7-8-19

If the direction of the guild is towards advancing their krono bank, then count me out, i will not be apart of this guild. I want everyone to be able to see all the end game content (with-in reason) and participate in it.

Multiple items are intended for certain arch types. Caster items should not be bid on by melees, and melee gear should not be bid on by casters. Simply because a item might allow a class to wear it, does not mean it is best suited for that class. Kunark is going to suck, not very much gear or end game raids; until Velious. What we set-up now, needs to last and endure for the foreseeable future.

I personally believe we need to work towards the greater good, and what is the best for the guild. I do not care if your character is broke, then you need to farm on your own time.

EQITEMS is not a definitive site to check for BiS; stop quoting that as the go-to, all-knowing, one-stop site. It is based off of basic algorithms that do not account for balancing of stats, or even if a certain stat is a higher priority for the class you play. It does not even include balancing of stats for a tank line up. AND the most important thing, regardless of gear and stat balancing... SKILL > AA > GEAR.


7/04/2019 9:47 am  #16

Re: DKP and Looting Discussion Thread Please Post By 7-8-19

***Following is not directed toward anyone***

The Heroes of Sword and Boards DKP system works pretty well, in my opinion.  Our only issue comes with items classified as ALL/ALL and the inconsistency in dealing with them. The issues have been:

1. Who was able and was not able/allowed to bid on items in the past.
2. Who will and won't be allowed to bid on items in the future.
3.  Why changes happen and the reasoning shaping the changes.

This seems to be a fairly unpopular opinion, but ALL/ALL items from past expansions need to be open for all classes for DKP bidding.  When an expansion does launch, new, comparable and better items release with it. (I understand some loot stays viable for a long time). This is the nature of ALL/ALL high value items.  Regulating them is an issue with constant drama attached.  Treating them as ALL/ALL will eliminate a sense of entitlement and make people truly consider how they spend DKP in mass quantities.  

Addressing best class to use ALL/ALL items.  There is a strong opinion that certain  ALL/ALL items are best for just tanks or just casters and otherwise it is wasted, given to a nonpreferred class. I find these remarks ultimately self serving, and do nothing but direct loot towards one's self, alienating raiders and guildmates, ultimately causing drama and resentment. 

Arguing guild progression on a raid that was cleared months ago, also doesn't seem to be a very valid argument either.  Arguing future progression when we can simply complete the same raid with a another chance at the item makes it even less of an argument for guild progression.  

Also rules have been posted on this website since the guild has formed with little change to them and with a clear reminder Guild Leaders may use their discretion to distribute loot and make "on the fly decisions".  

Just my feelings on this.  



7/04/2019 10:03 am  #17

Re: DKP and Looting Discussion Thread Please Post By 7-8-19

1: Characters should only be rolling on items that are a clear upgrade.  A wizard rolling on a COF for HP is frankly stupid AF if there are melee who need the haste/primary stats. If an item does not upgrade anyone, including alts,  should be an open bid. Many times I've seen items being rolled on after a dragon kill or even yael that people were restricted on rolling on and the ones rolling on it had better items. Afterwords the characters who won it, do not have it equipped.  You KNOW they're selling that crap(or putting it on a twink) and it's complete bullshit they get to have a nice sell item for 1dkp or so. I've even seen a member rolling on an item they had already won on a previous raid(yes, it was a lore item). In addition if an item does NOT upgrade anyone, or theres a quest item no one needs, let it be an open bid.  I have zero qualms on letting people sell crap  no one needs while it still has value in the market. 

2:  If you spent your DKP and get an upgrade, sell it IMO.  Not that I think this is the optimal thing for the guild, but I also realize keeping track of every damn piece of loot would be a nightmare.  I sure as hell wouldn't want to do it and wouldn't want to impose that on anyone else. I'd prefer if you're going to sell something, give guild first crack at it rather than just instantly going to CL.

3:At this point it's up to the character, I'd rather them give first sell rights to people in guild, but that's about as far as it goes. This is kind of a rehash of my answer on #2. I'm against refunding dkp or anything like that, again it's going to be way more complicated.

4:  If 1-3 are followed, implementation should be easy.

I'd Also like to piggyback on something Nessy was hitting on. I want way more transparency of the guild bank. Sell items are being dropped ~1000p or so each hate/fear raid plus all the gems. I'm not claiming there's anything untoward going on but when the reasoning is port stones and potions, my dwarf senses start tingling. If we could see the in's and out's I think it would make a lot of us more comfortable.

The way to implement this is a running tab. After raids, sell the items, deposit gems and list what the haul is. Then show what we've spent money on as a guild and deduct it. Just a little accounting. It would nice to see this outside of the spam of crap for PoS quests.  

Last edited by Eilgrad (7/04/2019 10:05 am)


7/04/2019 11:23 am  #18

Re: DKP and Looting Discussion Thread Please Post By 7-8-19

I don't believe anyone's intent was turn the guild into a krono chase. If the wording used that the Shield of the Immaculate could be sold offended some, that is regrettable. This was the intention and it was not a rule change. 

The original loot rules banned selling any dkp item during the expansion in which it was first dropped. The shield was no longer included in that restriction.

If an item can be sold, is it fair that only one class can bid on it? I am not in favor of selling dkp items period, but how do we handle this? (Btw, there is no indication that the winning bidder last night intends to sell the shield. Having a instant clicky cure disease item on a healer is not a bad thing.)

The recent example of a melee getting a no-drop haste item from PoSky after spending all his dkp on a haste belt brought up new questions. The belt was not obtained with the intention to sell it but was now unneeded. Any rule other than allowing that player to do what he wished with the old haste belt would be unenforceable and just lead to more problems.

I personally prefer that only toons who can and will use the items bid dkp for them. A suggestion late last night was to require that an item should be usable and a "plausible upgrade" for the bidding toon. Example: if a toon already has a PoSky haste item (41%), they couldn't bid on a lesser haste item.

(Separately, the arguments over BIS for x class are largely just BS. Such BIS judgements are largely subjective.)

It was also suggested last night that no toon be allowed to dkp buy more that 1 of any item (except non-lore bracers, rings, earrings, or consumables). I am in favor of this. So then, what will we do when all the raiders and members (mains) have haste belts for example? 

The officers discussion last night made clear that nothing is final. Input and discussion is encouraged from all. 


7/04/2019 11:40 am  #19

Re: DKP and Looting Discussion Thread Please Post By 7-8-19

When it comes to all/all items, everyone will always be able to make a case that the item is an upgrade for them in some way. This does not mean that it isn’t better for a specific archetype. Sure, an instant click cure is great, but it is great for anyone. 25 ac is incredible for a back slot item, period. It is hard for me to find any argument that says this item is more beneficial to a caster than it is to a tank. The response we saw last night from many of our core members and raiders should provide enough evidence that this decision was less than ideal.


7/04/2019 11:42 am  #20

Re: DKP and Looting Discussion Thread Please Post By 7-8-19

I asked last night, and I still stand by the question. What was so Wong with the rules as they were written? We were operating under a very clear need before greed manner, and this change, while it seems small, seems to change that ideaology.


7/04/2019 12:39 pm  #21

Re: DKP and Looting Discussion Thread Please Post By 7-8-19

The "change" last night was to allow a non-tank to bid on the shield. Is everyone ok to allow only certain classes to bid on all/all items? How do we do decide this for every all/all item without making "on the fly" decisions?

I'm asking so that we can be clear, not to argue that we should open the bidding to all.

Last edited by Nimzo (7/04/2019 12:40 pm)


7/04/2019 12:56 pm  #22

Re: DKP and Looting Discussion Thread Please Post By 7-8-19

1. Nobody should be permitted to bid DKP for the purpose of selling an item. Period. I think most people understood this to be the guild rule and to the extent the rules as written differ they should be changed. People routinely heard during raids that we don’t bid DKP to sell items and if that was discovered there would be consequences. There was no mention in raid discussions about “well, unless it is from a previous era,” unless Saturn is in its lunar phase, or the moon is out in full this day. If guild leadership always contemplated that DKP could be used to take items from people who could use them as an upgrade and then turn around and sell those items - that was a mistake and should be rectified immediately to make it clear that need before greed is what this guild is about and nobody is allowed to use DKP with the intent to sell the acquired item. An exception can be discussed and made if an item is not an upgrade / needed for the people at the raid.

2. I agree with Armor and others that something like the shield is of course a tank item and should be bid upon by tanks. I don’t think there is any objectively reasonable argument that a Druid, caster, etc. should take that item over tanks who actually need and will use it. That is how we did it before and how it should be done moving forward. Whether an item is keyed all/all is not dispositive. What matters is objective reasonableness. There are items (CoF, etc.) that are generally understood to be incredible upgrades for particular classes that dramatically improve a guild’s abilities to progress and otherwise become more effective. It seems some want to pretend this isn’t the case and that there is this huge confusion that the shield for example is really just as useful and important to all classes because it is all/all. People know better.  And this is coming from a monk. I have a good argument that the AC and disease removal is incredible for a puller. However, I go through a simple (and honest) analysis about who really benefits most and what will help the guild on raids. And having that shield on a tank who is getting beat on nonstop is where the item belongs and which will help out most. Therefore, absent the rule change last night where we all were bidding, I would not take it over a tank who needed it. This issue may require more discussion as more all/all items come into play but an item being all/all should not be the deciding factor (or much of one at all for that matter). What should matter is what classes should be bidding based on a reasonable person standard which, if people are being honest, should not be very controversial.

3. If someone uses DKP to acquire an item for use (and not to sell) but later acquired an upgrade they should be able to sell it if they choose. The reason is simple - they did not acquire the original item to sell. And I agree it would be unreasonable and unduly burdensome to try and place restrictions on items that someone may have owned at that point for weeks or more. Bottom line - see comment no. 1 above - the golden rule should be nobody can use DKP with the intent to sell unless the people at the raid don’t need the item and everyone agrees the item will be available to sell and bid upon by everyone for that purpose with complete transparency. If the guild wants to keep that old item in the guild perhaps there can be a discussion on how that could happen (reimburse the person for previous spend for the item, etc.).

4. I am very concerned that the guild is underestimating how much this issue can result in people leaving. I think the large majority of this guild believes you should not use DKP to take items from those who need them with the intent to sell the item. Conversely, I believe people who want to bid DKP to pad their Krono account are in the large minority. At the end of the day, the guild leadership needs to decide which side of the issue they plan to fall. Personally, j am extremely surprised this is becoming a dividing issue. It seems obvious that this guild was never about using DKP to get items to sell. Especially when others in the guild need those items for their characters who raid and help the guild. A system set up to the contrary is going to encourage and draw the type of guild members many loathe and don’t want to be around while distancing those who put the needs of others when it comes to items ahead of their own Krono wallets.


7/04/2019 1:26 pm  #23

Re: DKP and Looting Discussion Thread Please Post By 7-8-19

From what we are hearing the majority of people are saying they want loot to be NBG for all raids. This in theory is a good way to do loot. The problem is when we get those items that are all/all and people think it may be an upgrade to them over someone else. How do we make that determination? And who determines if it's a better upgrade for one person over someone else? For example lets use the CoF and lets say 2 warriors both need it. Both lvl 60 both raiders and both show up to the majority of the raids. One has a FBSS one has a RBB. NBG would then say both need the item but it would benefit the guild more to give it to the FBSS guy as that would be more of an upgrade for him then the guy with a RBB. But lets also say the FBSS guy already has a Shield of the Immaculate on his back while the RBB guy has a HBC. Someone want to try and figure out who would get the most benefit from the CoF now?

If we want to be a hardcore progression guild the DKP really isn't the way to go. It allows loot to be spread out over several toons and takes longer to get people fully geared. In all reality a loot council would be the best option so loot would be given to the people who we think would best use it for the guild. But I don't think anyone wants that. I think we would piss off way too many people and too many would feel we were playing favorites and feel they would never get geared since our primary focus would be to get the core raiders fully geared as quickly as possible.

As for selling items again the ORIGINAL rules we 1st put in place clearly said items could not be sold during the current expansion. The rules never really changed we just worded them to make them easier to understand. As for the shield last night it is a classic item and therefore it's allowed to be sold as per the rules from day one. Does it suck that such a good item could be sold outside the guild? Yeah it does but we all knew it was coming and was posted in the rules since day one. And no one is saying that is whats going to happen with the shield. It was bid on and fairly won according to the guild rules for the night. Not saying it was the right call or not but as far as the guild is concerned the matter for last night is settled and the shield is Kendainea's to do with as he pleases. That's not to say it's how this will be handled in the future as we are discussing and trying to get your input on how to handle this in the future and a revised ruleset concerning this, but last night decision stands (If you can't respect that then maybe this isn't the guild for you).

So how do we handle this in the future? If we want to keep the DKP system and keep it fair I would say we need to make a list of what drops off each mob and clearly say what classes are allowed to bid on each item. We wouldn't have to do it for the trash mobs or minor loot no one cares about but just the major bosses we are taking down on a regular basis. Something like this:


Bladestopper - Warrior, SK, Pally
Cloak of Flames - Warrior, SK, Pally, Monk, Rogue, Bard
Red Dragon Scales - Epic loot randomed to Warriors and Bards
Treasure Hunter's Satchel - Any class limit 1 per person


Kavruul's Mystic Pouch - Any class limit 1 per person
Runed Bolster Belt - Warrior, SK, Pally, Monk, Bard, Rogue
Tobrin's Mystical Eyepatch - Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Necro, Shaman, Mage, Enchanter
White Dragon Hide - Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Necro, Shaman, Mage, Enchanter

Once the listed classes have all looted the items then if it's a upgrade for any other classes they be allowed to bid DKP on it and then if it's a droppable item I say it gets looted and sold in the guild bank. That way people can't bitch about people bidding DKP for items to sell. Raiding is NOT a time for people to make money. It's a time to gear up your character and take out mobs you can't do by yourself.

Once an item is looted to be sold then it should be listed on the message board under the guild bank section and a fair market price set for it. Guildies should be able to get the item at a discounted price on a 1st come 1st served basis. Any item not sold to a guildie after a week needs to be sold in CL and the money added to the guild bank.

As for the guild bank, I can agree it's been alittle sloppy with record keeping and who has what lately. We do have a thread on the message board that gets updated weekly by people who have items so everyone knows what we have. I think where it gets confusing is that we have items, pp and KR spread out over 4 or 5 players accounts. Maybe we need to consolidate all guild items down to 3 or 4 characters on 1 persons account so everything is in one spot and accounted for. I got 2 bank characters already and have no problem keeping track of what money and gems and items we have. I agree we need to do a better job of accounting showing what items and pp comes into the guild and what goes out. I'm OCD aboout keeping track of stuff as youo can see from my DKP list and item list on the message board. I would be glad to start a bank thread and keep everything updated. If someone needed money for port stones or pots they could request x amount of pp on the thread and I could send it to them and update the post so it all stays correct and visible to everyone.

Now as for people saying they didn't know about the new rules or that they got taken by surprise by them. TOO FUCKING BAD!!!! We as leaders are not here to babysit you. New rules and announcments were posted in the guild MOTD, the discord Guild Announcements section and on the webpage all up to a week before any changes took place. I also personally said before 2 or 3 raids that we would be having a new DKP rules update to check the message board for info. I even announced it on Sunday when I revised to rules during raid that they were revised and for everyone to go check them out. If you missed all those announcements that's on you and I could careless if you were taken by surprise and didn't know about the changes. It is your responsibility to read the MOTD or the message boards for information I don't have time to personally message every single person in the guild to tell them there is a new post on the message board.

Finally as for what is and isn't allowed to be sold. Since the guild will be taking all non-upgrade droppable items to sell for the guild then this should be a moot point. If someone gets an upgrade to an item then they can ask permission from one of the 3 leaders of the guild and sell the item they no longer need. It can be a case by case basis to make sure no one is abusing the system.

I think this seems like a very reasonable solution and I'm willing to take on the majority of the paperwork and record keeping to make sure it runs smoothly. Any thoughts or ideas on how we could make this better?

Last edited by Burta (7/04/2019 1:54 pm)

     Thread Starter

7/04/2019 2:05 pm  #24

Re: DKP and Looting Discussion Thread Please Post By 7-8-19

I disagree with this change because I think it is negative for the guild:
-It has the potential to divert loot away from classes that STILL benefit for accomplishing more as a guild
-could divert gear from our raids into the market or other guilds (granted its TLP and there is not as much of a strict competition)
-direclty or indirectly approves selling items that are potentially still NEED items

1) Archetype restrictions for key items (ex CoF, RBB, white dragon scale cloak) in their era:
If we are keeping this then i suggest modifying the rules in this way:
-Items stay restricted through at least through the 2nd following era (Velious for Cloak of Flames, White Dragon Cloak, Amulet of Necropotence)
- Restricted items need to have minimum purchase prices while still restricted (see #2)
-If we are still raiding content as an official raid then literally NOTHING has changed on Day 1 of Kunark and the items should be to gear up the raid force so we can do bigger and better things.
-If we only gear 1-2 top tier tanks with AC gear and good weapons or 5-6 melees with a haste item and then open it up, we will be hamstringing our future
-We want to avoid having 3rd and 4th main tanks and Knight off tanks fall behind in gear, and cannot fill in when the are still expected to fulfill main tank and raid level DPS
-Tanks and melees also likely could not ever compete with the massive caster DKP pool until caster loot drops increase, sorry guys but there are just way more casters and less caster loot
-Also, some raids such as Traknon, we have a short time to farm and the items are rare (such as class BP)

2) Selling of DKP items and DKP minimum purchase price
-Selling items that were bid on with DKP should be highly discouraged in the rules, if not prohibited even.
-DKP is a system designed for one purpose - to fairly distribute loot to those that contribute and attend the most
-Any selling of sought after items creates low morale and also hurts guild progression
-My impression of HoSB is that the guild is not raiding to enrich its members, but to give them a chance to consume the hardest content
-However, the problem is you can't police this and you cant enforce this either, so you need a system that self regulates
-Finally, if there is a special situation such as Rizen's haste belt, selling an item that can be approved or not approved by guild leadership on a case by case basis, but generally I'd say NOT.
-I agree with getting to spend your DKP how you want, if you want a marginal upgrade more power to you, but we still have rules. And the guild does not owe you Krono in return for your DKP.
-Again no way to POLICE this, but there are ways you could have ways of imposing consequences. Demotion, DKP penalty, or guild removal... so there are ways to enforce rules. Otherwise why have rules at all.

Here's how I would change the system to make make it fair and self regulating:

1) DKP minimum price on Tradeable DKP items (doesn't have to apply to NO DROP, but could at a lower amount)
-Eliminates bids of 1 dkp on an item you dont really need but could sell (allowed or not, assume it could be sold)
-It eliminates collusion (Telling someone you'll bid 1 dkp on this they get the next one for 1 dkp as well)
-Creates a reasonable and fair DKP sink
-Either a predetermined amount or an average of prior bids
-Examples (not set in stone by any means): CoF = 200 or 300 DKP minimum, or Venril Legs 250 DKP minimum, Trak BP 500 DKP minimum

2)One item per character restriction- guild will mostly self police this, people keep track of hot items and where they are going

3)Drop raider/ member distinction; allow the DKP system work, again this will self regulate, this will also help in recruitment and attendance. A newly joined raider with 50 DKP will not be winning anything of significance right away.
-This current system allows for DKP disparity and makes some guildies second class citizens.
-Raiders feel entitled to get an item 1 DKP, and then at the same time complain that they have too much DKP, while members are left out to dry.
-If members have enough DKP to compete it means they've been showing up and they deserve a shot.
-Epic drops still can be handled as /random 1000, if you attend more you get more rolls OR have a loot order determined by the class leader and drop the raider facade that creates and air of superiority
-Keep the raider/ alt distinction, alts and boxes should not bid against mains ever

4) DKP bidding to reimburse yourself for an item purchased
-Probably shouldnt be allowed, but if it is:

-If an item is being opened up to bid for purposes to sell, even if that is to reimburse yourself, it needs to be open to EVERYONE to bid and not restricted by class or rank
-If the guild leaderships decides to reimburse someone for an item then it can be reimbursed from guild bank funds that are collected every raid, if there is not enough money in the guild bank, then no item , that simple.
-If the guild bank needs to be reimbursed the next time it drops then they can claim that item for that purpose

-Fictional example: if you buy a dragon scale with your own money, the guild does not now OWE you a dragon scale, once you have it, it is no longer a NEED item. If one person is allowed to bid GREED, then it needs to then bid against everyone else.

-However, if the guild decides to purchase a particular item because its not dropping then they can and should do that. ONLY if that item is bought expressly at guild leaderships request. Otherwise, If you purchase an item on your own  volition, fine but that is your decision and your responsibility.

-Actual example: A bard drum that was purchased for 1 dkp with express purpose of selling
- I understand where this is coming from, but it needs to be fair to everyone else too
- Otherwise it creates and encourages a system of DKP gaming
- Way it can be abused is you can buy an item, have it first, wait for it to go for 1 DKP, never have to spend much DKP, and still get my money back eventually and still have way more DKP than those that bid on it fairly.
- That person will then have more DKP than everyone else the next time a new item drops.
-Allowing DKP bids like this will self regulate selling and again help drain some excess DKP from the rosters
-This this will encourage people to bid fair amounts of DKP for the item if they do wish to sell it

-If this does not sound fair, then it shouldnt be done at all, guild loots all tradeable NON-NEED items to sell for guild funds and then determines as a guild what items are guild necessities to spend guild funds on.

I think these are some easily implemented and not too complicated ways of handling these hot button issues.
Thanks for being willing to listen to our feedback.
Appreciate the job that Burta, Nimzo, Kazu, and Burnberry do to keep the loot system as fair as it can be.



Last edited by Audubon (7/04/2019 4:03 pm)


7/04/2019 4:11 pm  #25

Re: DKP and Looting Discussion Thread Please Post By 7-8-19

Audubon, Burta posted before you with updates to the dkp bidding rules. 

He did NOT say anywhere that only 1 or 2 tanks or other melee would get geared. That has never been the guild's philosophy.
He said NOTHING that included casters bidding on melee focused loot items. There may be some discussion yet on which category additional items fall into. 

The Raider - Member distinction was setup in part for epic drops.
How many times does a first time raider get to win a rare epic drop while those who have been raiding from the server start have to wait? Random does not mean fair; it means random. This happened multiple times. 

Should we set higher minimum prices for some drops? I think this would be unpopular, but consider the player who is bid up on his BP only to see the next BP drop go for 1 dkp to the person who bid him up. 


7/04/2019 4:25 pm  #26

Re: DKP and Looting Discussion Thread Please Post By 7-8-19

Nimzo wrote:

Audubon, Burta posted before you with updates to the dkp bidding rules. 

He did NOT say anywhere that only 1 or 2 tanks or other melee would get geared. That has never been the guild's philosophy.
He said NOTHING that included casters bidding on melee focused loot items. There may be some discussion yet on which category additional items fall into. 

The Raider - Member distinction was setup in part for epic drops.
How many times does a first time raider get to win a rare epic drop while those who have been raiding from the server start have to wait? Random does not mean fair; it means random. This happened multiple times. 

Should we set higher minimum prices for some drops? I think this would be unpopular, but consider the player who is bid up on his BP only to see the next BP drop go for 1 dkp to the person who bid him up. 

The Raider > member > alt is also a way to separate who gets to attend raids and what happens when 30 of one class shows up wanting to raid. We have it so eventually only raiders will be allowed on the raid when we get the numbers. 

     Thread Starter

7/05/2019 8:40 am  #27

Re: DKP and Looting Discussion Thread Please Post By 7-8-19

Well... Personally I feel that we should not be doing anything for alts... I really dont... Only for mains - Raiders and new members.... I know in previous guilds we had a secondary guild for the alts and had 1 or 2 nights a week where we raided with them to get gear etc... 
If there is a drop it should be dispersed as follows 1) If its for epic - it goes there first  2) Best Class for item 3) then whoever wants it  4) guild bank if possible.  
It seems to me many are bringing their alts to the raids to gear them up because they have what they need on their mains or cant benefit by raiding Fear  with they main so they bring the alt in hopes for a drop and loot.  Alts should be invited based on need only.  
WE ARE A CASUAL GUILD.... we need to remember this and stay focused.
Just my 2 cents 



7/05/2019 1:35 pm  #28

Re: DKP and Looting Discussion Thread Please Post By 7-8-19

I am the first one to admit I have not raided extensively like some nor have I ever been any guild leadership position so take my comments as coming an average person that likes EQ and likes to raid.

The one thing that I have heard that I truly agree with that is not in the current DKP rules as that each person should only be allowed to win a particular item ONCE - IE One COF, AON, bags etc etc. We are assuming the items won by DKP bids are used by the mains (and I think everyone is feels pretty strongly about this).

Secondly I do think there should be some sort of bid minimums for items. You can always bid more but there needs to be some baseline for items else items will eventually go for 1 dkp while we continue to rack up the dkp points with nothing to spend it on. (The alternate is to have some sort of DKP decay which I really hate this idea - there needs to be a way to use up earned DKP in a realistic way or it is going to get out of hand with people have a rediculous amount of DKP earned)

As far as who can bid on items - I have really mixed feelings about this and am not strongly in either camp.
I want to ensure our raiders are geared appropriately ie melee get melee gear and casters get caster gear, but there are several items that can be claimed to be great for all classes and all of us raiders have earned the right to bid DKP for those items. (With no minimum a Shield of the Accumulate could theoretically go for 1 dkp if it is limited to warrior only) I don't think this is the intention either. So if there is a minimum bid say 1000 for the shield then warrior should be able to bid first and if they want it they get dibs but still spend the dkp if they don't it that badly then well it opens up to everyone.

As far as selling loots - I know it was in the original rules that it was okay to sell past expansions loots. 
I think myself and most of us think this is really not the purpose of raiding. The items earned are for us to use and progress and become stronger to obtain even better items. Now once you upgrade something  then you should be free to trade it or sell it. Its your you earned it with your DKP. (Now if we limit to one item per person many probably will keep these items since they cannot earn them again and then if you had a minimum bid most people are not going to bid on items that they know they are going to upgrade shortly and then turn around and sell it)

So one item earned per person and a minimum bid could go a long ways in "correcting" things.

The problem with minimum bid is that it forces dkp spent on loot that is now subpar - so maybe the desirable stuf gets the mimimum and the not so much stuff can be done at 1 DKP. (or it just rots)

I am one of several that will bring a box(alt) to raid just because I can - its always my lowbie bard that can sing mana song for my cleric so I think there a small justification in that however I do pickup alt loot for 1dkp.
Right or Wrong I don't know and I have no problem not bringing the box to the raid at all. If we ever get close to full I will be the first to drop the box.

If anyone has a problem with my box let me know in game to discuss.


7/06/2019 8:14 am  #29

Re: DKP and Looting Discussion Thread Please Post By 7-8-19

I didn't read every post here because some just looked too long.  I will just add my own thoughts on how I think Guild loot should be handled.

1: 1st bidding opportunity should be restricted to raiders of a class that can make most use of any given item. (example: melee for haste items or casters for white dragonscale cloak or tanks for a shield, ect). 

2: If no one is interested in the item as an upgrade then open bidding to all raiders.

3: If no raiders are interested in the item then open bidding to all members.

4: If no members are interested in the item then open bidding to all alts.

NBG should always come first.  It's in the best interest of the guild to have our raiders upgrade their current gear.  I am not opposed to having greed/alt/selling bidding but it should only be after raiders have had their chance at it first.


7/08/2019 11:50 am  #30

Re: DKP and Looting Discussion Thread Please Post By 7-8-19

The game constantly changes
Your class constantly changes
Your skill and playstyle constantly changes
Your gear constantly changes
Your raid composition constantly changes
Therefore, your loot policies must constantly change.


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