OK Just wanted to give everyone a state of the guild update and to explain everything that has happened in the last month or so. 

1st off let me assure you the guild is still going strong and is not going anywhere.  We are not disbanding or breaking up.  We have lost some people recently due to drama over purposed changes that I for one knew would never come to past.  But we have also gained a bunch of new members as well so the ranks should hopefully balance out.  It will take some time to get the new people up to speed with the way we do things so everyone please bear with us as we do that.

Now as everyone knows I am 100% open and honest with everyone.  I don't believe in secrets or keeping the members in the dark about what is going on or what happens when it comes to the leaders and our discussions.  So having said that let me explain what all has happened in the past month or so.

We did a proactive guild hall meeting awhile back to discuss the possibilities of us absorbing another guild.  We had no request for this we were just getting ideas from members on what would be fair to them and what everyone wanted to see happen if this came about.  It was decided that if we did get that offer that we would offer them no special treatment at all. That any other guild we would absord would come in just like any other recruits we may have gotten.  No bonus dkp given to them and no officer positions given to any of them automatically.

After that public guild hall meeting Bigma asked to have a private officers meeting to discuss other ideas he had.  Officers in attendance was me, Beerd, Bigma, Armor, Airmed and Vastator.  The main topic Bigma wanted to discuss was the purposed changes to the guild dkp and looting system.  He said he felt that the guild was being a dictatorship with me in charge and I wasn't asking them for feedback before doing things. I pointed out that I always talked to Beerd or Kazu before doing anything guildwise and got their ok with it. I also always posted my ideas in the officers section of discord with little to no response back 90% of the time.

For example I posted about the DKP giveaway for recruitment and Burnberry was for it and only had Armor say he wasn't for the idea that it was too easy to take advantage of.  I explained for 10 dkp per member and only after the member had been here for 30 days is too much trouble for people to take advantage of.  He didn't respond anymore after that so I went along with it figuring 10 dkp per new member would be worth it if it brought in new members.  I then made a post about the double DKP for raids after 2 members suggested it to me as a way to boost raid attendance and had no one post any concerns about that. So I was making post and keeping others informed on what was going on and for the most part getting no feedback or concerns being brought up.

Bigma's suggestions was he wanted certain boxed toons to be promoted to raider status, a minimum DKP bid on all dragon and boss mob loot, and a change to the dkp bidding system to Raider and Boxed Raider > Members > Greed.  Basically all 3 things we just voted on.  I was completely against this as having a big drama fest not too long ago with loot concerning the Shield of the Immaculate and Kendainea winning it on her Druid for her Warrior that she wanted to main switch too and everyone sending her nasty messages about being greedy and putting herself above what was best for the guild.  This resulted in her quitting the server and the shield rotting on her unplayed characters.  This was a fair bid on her part as we made it clear that night that according to the guild rules that were in place since the beginning of the guild was that that piece of loot was greedable by anyone on the raid.  Yet everyone was up in arms about it forcing us to revise the original looting rules and making a list of all droppable items and what classes would be allowed to bid on each item.  This is the rules we have been following for awhile now and they seem to be working just fine.

The biggest complaint I've heard from Bigma and other officers and leaders has been the alts on the raids and the 1 dkp bids on loot and people saving up large amounts of dkp.  Well it's a bidding system and like all systems there's ways to play it and get the most out of your dkp.  Like waiting til everyone else gets the gear then bidding 1 dkp on it to save your points up, and bidding up the other guys forcing them to pay more for an item then getting it cheaper for yourself when no one else needs it.  Perfect example happened last Sunday at the dragon raid.  The Cobalt Greaves dropped and I get a message from Optinar that he doesn't need them that we could donate them to the guild bank for krono if we wanted. I told him I still needed them and bid 1 dkp. He up'ed the bid to 950 DKP knowing I would out bid him and spend my dkp to get them.  Which is fair and a smart thing for him to do to force me to use up some of my dkp to bring me closer to his level. But had I got them for 1 DKP that would have been fair as well since I was the only warrior at the raid who could use them.  I had the biggest dkp pool in the guild because I have attended every single raid except 1 since the before this guild formed.  No one else in the guild can say that.  I put the time and effort in to get those points and should be allowed to spend them as I see fit.

The other thing they wanted was to have certain boxed alts promoted to raider status to get geared up for Velious.  Now at the time that sounded good.  It was explained that we need bards and their songs for the fights and they need the equipment and resist to stand up in those fights.  And I'm all for that.  I understand that until we get main members playing bards and the other classes we are lacking in then the boxed bards are going to have to be in the raid for us to raid at all.  But.... No one ever said what equipment exactly the bards are wanting to bid on that they can't bid on now to help them out? I mean most the bards boxed or not I think are fully equiped atleast with the no drop armor.  Is there some dragon or boss loot I'm missing that would be a huge improvement for the bards resist-wise for Velious?  Are we just talking CoF's and RBB? What specific loot is needed by them?

The final thing was the dkp bidding chain.  While I was fine with promoting certain boxed toons to raider status and letting them bid along with the raiders I didn't want to change who got to bid in what order.  It seemed to me that Bigma and other people wanted to cut the alts out of bidding altogether and have it more of a greed bidding to pad peoples banks and to let people spend dkp they have saved up.  The big complaint is casters have nothing to bid on.  Yet every single time something good casterwise drops I get complaints that that person shouldn't have been allowed to bid on it or people crying because they got out bid by someone who may not have attended as many raids lately as the other person.  These are the people blowing their dkp on minor upgrades or the occasional greed loot we toss out there for dkp then they get mad that people outbid them.  Taking the droppable items no one needs and selling them for the guild bank eliminates all that.  Casters need to save up their dkp and only bid on items they need.

Bigma also made a post saying "If loot can't be bid on but must instead be purchased to have Burta later decide who gets what from those sales then this is a Loot Council and not DKP."  When did i EVER say I would be the one deciding what loot to buy and for who?  Allow me to qoute directly from my post concerning this, "My plan is once we get a nice stash of KR banked up then those hard to get items can be bought by the guild and given to the people who need them.  It can be as easy as whoever wants something post on the message board they need "X" item.  Once a month we can take a vote on the message board to determine what item we buy for who.  That way the whole guild has an opportunity to request items they need and the whole guild gets to decide what the money is spent on.  It allows us to buy items we need for raiders that may not be dropping for us on raids." So please Bigma don't go putting words in my mouth.

So having said all that, and man it was a bunch and I know some of it was a rehash from previous post I've made so thanks for bearing with me.

Having gone through this in the past and seeing how it all worked out I was against changing anything but not wanting to be "the dictator" I posted a summary of what we talked about and the proposed changes in the officers section of discord for any officers that may have not been there to chime in and discuss this for 1 week then I allowed bigma to write up his proposed changes and make a post on the boards to discuss these changes and agreed to letting everyone vote on what changes, if any, would be done.  And man did it turn into a cluster fuck... People were either complete for or in most cases completely against any changes at all.  Discussions got heated and tempers flared up and people said things that shouldn't have been said.  People were personally attacked and told to shut up, we had people trolling others and people got cussed at. Even officers showed this childish behavior.  This resulted in several people leaving the guild before a vote was even taken and several more threatening to leave depending on how the vote turns out.  People this is a GAME.  We come here to have fun and don't need the drama. Sometimes people have other opinons then you do and sometimes no matter what you say your not going to change their minds. That's the point you agree to disagree and walk away from the discussion, not the time to name call or make personal attacks.  We are adults here let's try to act like it.

After the agreed upon week for Bigma to discuss this with the guild and make his case I opened it up for a vote.  And just like I predicted the majority of the guild didn't want change.  Bigma accused me of rushing the vote and not listening to any of the feedback we got from the members. To which I disagree.  Instead of making it 1 vote on all his proposed changes I listened to the suggestions of members to break it down into voting on each topic to give him the best chance of getting something to at least go through.  Had I left it all lumped together for 1 yes or no vote on everything he had proposed then no one would have voted for any of the changes at all.  I also modified the bidding chain after Bigma back peddled with the Raider and Boxed Raiders > Members > Greed to Raiders > Boxed Raiders > Members > Greed when the majority of the guild said they didn't want boxes bidding along with raiders.  I don't think the vote was rushed at all.  I think Bigma's new changes were never going to go through. Dragging this out any longer would do nothing but result in more drama and more people leaving the guild. If Bigma can't state his case for the changes and make any modifications that needs be in a week then that's on him not the me or the rest of the guild.

All this talk about loot changes and trying to fix something that is working for the majority of the guild just causes fighting and results in people leaving the guild over it.  I made the statement in the officers channel that as far as I'm concerned as leader of the guild there will be no more proposed changes or votes until the majority of the guild complains about an issue.  I'm not taking the 4 or 5 people that keep coming to me saying all these people are complaining to them at face value.  I am the leader of this guild along with Beerd.  If there is a problem I am the one who people should be coming to.  Don't come to me saying 10 other people have come to you with their concerns send those 10 people to me.  I'm tired of people saying this and then when we vote those 10 other people never show up. 

From the voting thread and talking to members the less change the better.  I can't tell you how many times Bigma and the others who were for these changes tried to assure people that it wouldn't matter once Velious comes out as our player base would pick back up for raiding and there would be so much more loot to bid on that these changes wouldn't matter.  Well if that's the case then why change stuff for a week?  That's what it all boils down too and I think most the guild realized this as well and the voting so far reflected this.

So as of now with the voting, not a single proposed change will go into effect.  Everything will remain as it has been concerning loot and dkp and bidding on items as it has been.  I will allow the voting to continue until Sunday like planned to make sure this is what the guild as a whole wants.  But from the way it looks nothing is going to change.  Please keep recruiting as I'm sure this post will piss off some of the people who like to cause drama and want to keep changing things that don't need to be changed and they will probable quit.  Sorry about the long post but as always I wanted to keep everyone in the guild in the loop and to explain what our thoughts were on these matters and what all went on behind the scenes that lead to all this.  This is your guild I'm here to listen to you and do what the majority of the guild wants.  I want to keep it simple and fair to everyone here. If anyone ever needs to talk don't be afraid to send burta a message in game, on discord or through the message board.  I will always get back to you.

I see Bigma and Airmed both left today due to the fact that the proposed changes they wanted and the voting isn't going their way.  They like to blame it on the leadership but as leader I'm trying to listen to what the guild as a whole wants. Hence the reason I opened these changes to a vote.  Not because I wanted too but because I was asked to by Bigma.  I hate to lose people but we have to do what is the best for the guild as a whole.  Will be having a guild hall meeting after the raid tonight and Friday if anyone wants to talk or have any concerns.

Last edited by Burta (8/14/2019 10:59 pm)