Name: Burta
My vote:
#1 - YES
#2 - NO
#3 - NO


OK I've stayed out of most of the discussion part of this until now so my thoughts wouldn't sway anyones decision on how to vote or to add fuel to the fire and risk pissing anyone off. This is going to be a long post so please bear with me as I am going to address several topics and guild issues that have been brought to me and that I heard through the grapevine and by listening in on the Guild Hall talks we've had.


1st off my thoughts on the DKP and changes to the raiding system we have.  I think the way we've been handling DKP bidding and looting for the past month or so is great and shouldn't be changed at all.  It's working and loots getting distributed as fairly as possible. I know we give out a bunch of DKP points but I truely believe it all balances out in the long run. When that one piece of loot drops that everyone wants then someone is going to blow the majority of the DKP they have saved up for it and they will be out of the bidding for other loot for a long time.  It has been stated many times that this change is mostly concerning loot until Velious releases and that after that it really won't matter.  So if that's the case then why change how we've been doing things if it's only going to matter for a week or 2 and then Velious is released (Aug.28th).


As DKP keeper I'm not in favor of changing who earns DKP and how it's spent concerning alts and mains. I don't know who is an alt and who is a main or a box. When I do dkp I have the raid dump showing whos there and I award the points to each character on the list.  As per the guild rules items are spouse to be being bid on by the character who is going to use that item.  As stated before raiding is a time to gear up your main characters with loot they couldn't get on their own or in single groups. It is not a time to pad your bank account.  I don't mind alts getting no drop gear if they are on the raid. If it doesn't go to them it would rot anyway.  That is as long as it doesn't slow down the raid.  Alt's should be bidding DKP from their dkp pool and mains from theirs.


My personal thoughts on items that are droppable that no raiders or mains need is they should go to the guild bank and be avalible for purchase from there at a discounted rate for guildies. There hasn't been a raid yet that someone has asked me if they can DKP bid on an item to give to their alt.  Usually I'm good about opening it up for greed rolls for everyone if it's a lower priced item but those items that sell for over 1 kr each I don't want people winning for 1 DKP. It leads to fighting and people accusing everyone of selling the items.  In those situations I've just been looting it for the bank and letting people buy it from there.  That helps the guild as a whole out as once we get enough krono saved up we can buy items we specifically need in the guild for people and not be tied down to the luck of what drops.


As for the minimum DKP bids for dragon and boss loot...  While I'm in favor of it since it does keep people from waiting out everyone else and getting a 5kr item for 1 dkp, having said that and looking back over all the bids I really don't see dragon and boss loot going for less than 100 dkp anyway.  Even when we start the bidding off at 1.  So I don't think this should be a real issue anyway.  All the trash mobs loot will still be 1 dkp to start.  Even making a 100 dkp minimum I don't think anyone would hesitate to bid 100 DKP on a Cof or Shield of the Immacualte if they went up for bid.  The only down side to this is what happens to an item if no one bids the 100 dkp on it?  Droppable stuff could easily go to the guild bank but what about no drop items?  Do we let it rot if someone could actually use it on the raid?  I just think this is something that doesn't matter too much and too hard to track.  Let people bid what they want.


My plan is once we get a nice stash of KR banked up then those hard to get items can be bought by the guild and given to the people who need them.  It can be as easy as whoever wants something post on the message board they need "X" item.  Once a month we can take a vote on the message board to determine what item we buy for who.  That way the whole guild has an opertunity to request items they need and the whole guild gets to decide what the money is spent on.  It allows us to buy items we need for raiders that may not be dropping for us on raids.


The major complaint I hear is that people leave and go afk for weeks at a time or don't raid as often as some of the other people and when that piece of nice loot drops and they win it people complain that they shouldn't have been allowed to bid on it.  To me DKP is just like earning money working a job. You put in your time and are awarded the points. What you do with them should be up to you. You should never lose those points for not spending them or for going AFK.  You earned those points like everyone else on that raid.  If someone goes afk for a month or so then by all rights the people who didn't go afk "should" have more dkp given and saved up then that person. If people are blowing DKP on items to sell or that is just a slight upgrade then they got no room to cry when someone whos been gone or saved up their dkp outbids them on items. You put in the time raiding then you will get items.  That being said, you should not be bidding on items that is not an upgrade for your character. I know it's happened in the past but we are working to cut down on that.  If your bidding on an major item don't be surprised if someone inspects you to make sure it is an upgrade or questions you why you want it if not...


Now I will say I am in favor of promoting CERTAIN boxed characters to raider status but only with a vote from the senior officers and higher approval.  There are a few boxes in the guild that come to every raid and are played exceptionally well and do things other people don't want to.  Like Brutal taking all the DT's on raids for us and the alt Bards needs to be geared up for velious.  In situations like that the official guild rule is if we ask someone to play an alt on a raid then they would get to bid as a main anyway for that raid.  This just makes it a permanent thing for those players.  Again it wouldn't be something we would do for every alt in the guild, just a select few that goes above and beyond to help out.  They would be allowed to only bid their DKP that they earned, it would still be Raider > Members > Alts > Bank.


Next concerning the guild bank.  I try to keep the thread updated at least once a week.  Items can be requested by any main that needs them and will usually be given to them free of charge.  Items we wish to sell will have a price listed after them in paraathese.  This is the guild discounted price.  It's already below the average TLPauctions price so we won't discount it any further.  If there is no price after the item then that means we probable only have 1 or 2 of them and are saving them for mains who needs them.  Spells can be requested for mains or alts all we ask is to use your best judgement on them.  If we only have 1 copy of the spell please don't request it for an alt since a main could need it.  If that spell stays in the guild bank for more than a week and no one ask for it then I have no problem giving it to an alt.  Just let the mains have 1st dibs and some time to claim it if they want it.  This is an honor system please don't abuse it and ruin it for everyone.


To claim anything from the guild bank the easiest way is to just make a post on the message board in the Official Bank Thread and I will send it out asap.  Or you can send me an in game mail to Burta.  Finally if it's an emergency and you need the item right now you can ask any senior officer or higher they all have the log in for the account.  But if anyone other then me takes anything out of the bank PLEASE make a post on the message board saying what you took out so I can keep the list updated for everyone.  Also if anyone has any spells or tradeskill items they want to donate to the bank just send them to Burta and I will get them on the correct mule and update the bank thread.


Finally I wanted to address the way announcments and discussions take place for the guild.  I'm a big supporter of the message board as the main place to conduct official guild business.  The discord channel is nice for the voice chat for raids and everyday BS but it is too easy for important topics and discussions to get lost in the spam.  Not everyone wants to scroll through countless posts to find something we talked about 2 or 3 days ago.  Too many channels and channels getting deleted is just a couple things I don't like about discord. I like being about to go back and re-read old topics myself.  The message board gives us an easy to find spot for each discussion and a place where it's not going to get lost in the spam.  I've had several people who told me they only use the message board to see how many DKP they got and nothing else.  If this is the case then when you miss out on something don't come crying to the leadership that you didn't know about it ahead of time.  Anything major I try to link the topic in the guild annouoncements area of discord but please everyone take 5 minutes each week to just check out the message boards for anything you might have missed. 


Sorry about the long post but I wanted to get it all out there.  If you ever need anything feel free to send me a private message or get ahold of me in game or through discord or the message board.  I want to know what we are doing right and what you think we can improve on.  That's why we are taking votes on these things instead of just making the changes and seeing who all we piss off with them.  We can't make everyone happy but we can listen and do what the majority of the guild wants.

Scagnetti
#1 - No* 
#2 - No
#3 - No?

On #1 - I am not against having a raid box category that elevates selected boxes above other boxes in bidding but never above any main, be that main a raider or a member. There would need to be a designation in the guild window of raid box status before the start of that days raiding imo.

On #3 - not entirely clear to me what this suggests except that it mentions a min dkp bid hence my no vote. With the current ranks in place, I favor a loot priority system of Raider > Member > Open Bid. Were we to add a rank of raid box this would change to Raider > Member > Raid Box > Open Bid.

I changed Alt/Box to Open Bid to suggest that it would be a phase in the bidding to allow Mains on the raid to bid on items that would be used to equip other toons they play that might not be on the raid, or help fund other wanted gear upgrades or tradeskill projects.

I can tolerate almost any rule set as long as it is firmly in place and known by all who seek the info. I understand there may be unforeseen events that may have to be ruled on in the moment but hopefully those occurrences are few and far between. The people we have are what makes the guild, not details of the loot system. 


 

Last edited by Scagnetti (8/12/2019 9:33 am)

Eilgrad
 

Last edited by Burta (8/14/2019 9:57 pm)

Kutsu


#1- While I can understand the need for boxed bards, our main priority needs to be getting real butts in seats, aka main bards geared and leveled.  That starts with recruitment and keeping the bards around that we do recruit. 

Ya know what would really put me off?  Being recruited into a guild as a new bard only to be told that I could not bid on loot that would be an upgrade, because someone with an extra computer set to /melody needs it...or even getting into the guild and finding that I had to bid against a box.  A box is never a real person.  They can't be played at full potential.  And yep, that is from someone who brings a boxed bard to raids some nights.

My thoughts, get rid of the member status.  If that was meant to be the 'recruits' title, then change it to new recruit.  Then also give them some sort of idea when they get to be a raider.  I see too many confused posts about when people get to be a raider.  Do they need to be max level?  Do they need to be at so many raids?  Do they need to raid for a set amount of time - ie 2 weeks with 50% attendance?    

Last edited by Burta (8/14/2019 9:58 pm)

#1 Yes
#2 No
#3 No

Audubon's vote:
1. No
2. Yes
3. No

1) Raider boxes selected by leadership.

I fear this will have an appearance of favoritism. Is it objective, subjective, or granted to senior leader's and officer's boxes only? Resembles loot council system in that a selected characters are designated for loot priority, which I think we all want to stay away from. Also, rules should be incentivising real players in that raid spot. If a box is there because there are no mains around, then they'll get the loot anyway!

2) Loot minimum bid values. 

I was back and forth on this ones but I think yes WILL help the guild make our bidding system feel more fair and even for everyone involved. This will make people think twice before grabbing an item that is not a true upgrade. get rid of bidding tiers and this problem will absolutely go away.

I voted with the following recommendation: Applies only DROPPABLE items as they have resale value. Only for CERTAIN items (items and their values pre-determined by leadership and posted for all to see).

We already have a minimum; so what we are really talking about is making it more in line with item values. Suggestion: RBB/COF 50 starting bid. Trakanon BP, Venril greaves 100 DKP starting bid. Trash drops and NO DROPS remain at 1 DKP. Example: Undead Dragon Sinew 1 DKP. 

In the current system a single 1 DKP is so minuscule that there is absolutely ZERO reason to pass an item on to the next tier of bidders, even if it is not an actual upgrade or a very marginal one. Example using myself: Currently I have 950 DKP, 1 DKP is 0.1% of my DKP pool. I replace that DKP cost 40-50x in one raid. 

Example: real example that happened at Sunday raid (no fault of those involved): A monk raider with 650 DKP is the only one able to bid on an RBB for 1 DKP while two monk members who also could benefit also from an item cannot bid even though they have 350 and 450 respectively. The member wouldn't be able to win that bid in a bidding war, unless the raider felt it wasn't worth that much to them. The raider monk maintains a large DKP lead despite just getting a great drop. Being locked out of bidding isn't fair treatment of members. Of course they need to put in some time.. this is a separate but still related issue.

Also having read up on different DKP systems. Most that use bidding system have minimum bids. 
http://www.tentonhammer.com/guides/updated-a-beginners-guide-to-dkp-dragon-kill-points

3) Raiders > Box/Alt/Greed.

Lets face it, this goes hand in hand with having "raider boxes".

Won't agree to this unless we have a firm timeline for people to be promoted to a raider.  I don't think this should be left up to class leaders anymore. Everyone tries their best to do a good job leading their classes no doubt, but as we've seen even class leaders take leaves for RL, move on from the game, etc. This leaves new members confused and frankly they'll probably feel like their being kept on the outside. Take the guess work out of this. We have heard it many times that we are a casual guild. But we are also a raiding guild and we need to cultivate and promote new raiders! Lets vote on how many raids you have to attend to become a raider. Would it 2,3,4,5?? What about a DKP threshold. Over 100, 150, 200 you become a raider?
 

Last edited by Audubon (8/12/2019 2:45 pm)

Skyblue

#1 - NO
#2 - NO
#3 - NO

#1 – No box alt should be have an elevated raid status.  Box alts are lucky to be counted a full alt, because the player divides their attention between two or more characters, where a single character player can fully attend to their character whether main or alt.
#2 – Miniminum dkp bid is not necessary.  The demand for the loot dictates its value.
#3  – Allowing greed bids for loot is not the best benefit for the guild, which needs operating capital; neither is it the best benefit for the majority of the guild's players.

Rule changes should be rare, and carefully presented, specially loot changes, because they usually cause damage that outweighs any possible benefit.

Last edited by Skyblue (8/12/2019 10:06 pm)

Bigma

no longer in guild 

#1: 
I completely agree with others that we should have real players instead of boxes.  However, the fact of the matter is that we do not currently have as many actual players playing the classes we require to raid successfully, especially once Velious is opened.  The "Raider Box" having priority to bid after "Raider" is to help keep those characters geared well enough to do the job until such a time when we can replace them with a "Raider" of that class.  It was never intended to be a permanent designation but a temporary solution to a current lack of required classes.  It's for this reason I am voting yes to the addition of the "Raider Box" rank.

#2: 
I don't believe it is a useful rule.  Having a minimum bid of 100 DKP on end boss loot seems pointless.  I highly doubt end boss loot will ever go for less than this anyway, so I am voting no.

#3: 
I think that this is the most complicated portion of the proposed changes.  It has raised questions regarding other related guild policies that I personally feel the guild can and should make improvements on but I will make a post on those topics in another thread.  I support the change of the current loot order (Raider > Member > Alt/Box > Bank) to (Raider > Raider Box > Open Bids > Bank).  I will try to break down each part to explain my point of view on this..

Raiders: In both cases the "Raider" rank gets the first opportunity to bid on items.  I think this is something we all agree on and will remain as it is.

Members: with the proposed change, the "Member" rank loot priority gets pushed back.  They will still have the opportunity to bid but only once loot has reached "Open Bids".  I think it's important to stress the fact that WE ARE A RAID GUILD.  We raid 3-4 times a week.  We will very likely be back to 4 days a week with the amount of raid content Velious will add to the game.  I don't think giving loot priority to people who can't commit the time to attend 50% of our raids over that of people who do is a good idea.  It will only slow down the progression we are able to make each expansion. 

Alt/Box:  Same as with the "Member" bids, "Alt / Box" loot bidding priority gets pushed back with the proposed changes.  People will still be able to bid for items for an Alt or Box along with everyone else when loot reaches "Open Bids". 

Bank:  if the proposed changes take effect, the priority of items going to the guild bank gets pushed back to the end of the line in the bidding cycle.  I support this change because I don't believe that any of us should be forced to buy items with real or in-game money that are dropped at raids we are present for.  The only time I agree that loot should be sold is to people who may have missed the raid where it had dropped and it ended up in the bank.  If loot can't be bid on but must instead be purchased to have Burta later decide who gets what from those sales then this is a Loot Council and not DKP.

Open Bidding:  The proposed addition of "Open Bids" is to give everyone a chance to bid for items that are not needed by those in the "Raider" or "Raider Box" ranks.  This includes both raiders and members.  It can be for an alt or a box or to sell for an upgrade.  The difference is that we as members can choose for ourselves what we buy and what the item is used for and we can use our DKP rather than our money to do it.

Last edited by Burta (8/14/2019 9:59 pm)

Skinzz

#1 No

#2 No

#3 No

What we have been doing for the majority of 2 expansions is working so don't try fix what isn't broken.

no longer in guild

Ok, guess I will chime in with my wall of text.   I will keep it as short and sweet as I can.  

#1 agree 100% with Bigma's reasoning no need to repeat it.  I will say that some of our boxes allow us to clear content currently and without them we would struggle and possibly fail.  It will only get worse going forward if we choose to leave these characters in gear that hinders the class. BUT I would hope we could replace these characters with real player sooner rather then later.

#2 
This suggestion was brought forward with people complaining about guildies getting items for 1dkp.  Personally, I dont care and going forward boss loot will never go for 1dkp for quite some time. Gearing the guildies can only help us.

#3 
Bigma nailed this on the head with his reasons. We seriously need a clear chain of recruitment through raider status. This would make the loot process more clear as well going forward. I feel like some people are voting no on this because there is no clear definition of ranks/rankings.

I would like to make one comment here.  A lot of people keep talking about the guild as some kind of separate entity ...it is NOT!  We the members ARE the guild.  By helping our members get gear for whatever reason that may be ...we are only strengthening the guild as a whole.  This "the guild" is NOT 1 person ... or 3 or 4-5 leaders ... it is US ALL.  And we ALL earned the loot that dropped.  So, I vote YES 100% to this change in the order that loot is distributed.  

Last edited by Burta (8/14/2019 10:00 pm)

Just an update afte day 1 of voting. Our current totals srands at:

#1 - 7 yes votes 13 no voted
#2 - 6 yes votes 14 no votes
#3 - 2 yes votes 18 no votes

So as of right now it looks like no changes to the current system will be made. We still have until monday to vote so this may change but wanted to give everyone an updated count.

Last edited by Burta (8/13/2019 7:48 am)

#1: Yes. Certain fights aren't going to happen in this guild currently without these boxes, however they shouldn't be considered full raiders. IE Rogues or Monk raiders should get priority on an upgrade over a bard box that has box raider status.

***Could cause problems when recruiting, because new recruits/raiders will be at a severe disadvantage in DKP over boxes***

#2: No. Punishing people who might have a legitimate upgrade in an item just because the item can be sold makes little sense to me. The entire point of a DKP system is to allow individuals and the guild to dictate the distribution of loot how they see fit. What if X item drops and person Y wants it but doesn't have the DKP for it because of the minimum DKP requirement, simply because person Z decided to be a dick and big them up on another upgrade? I'd like to think these things don't happen in guilds with a good need before greed attitude but it's inevitable in a DKP system. Another example would be Plane of Sky no drop pieces. Those things can totally be MQ'd and some of the MQs sell decently well. Why all of a sudden would we start charging people more DKP for stuff that has routinely gone for 1 DKP?

#3: No. If an item isn't going to be bid on by raiders I personally feel open rolling is the way to go, regardless of if they are going to sell the item or not. This should in my opinion be done only after no raiders have decided to bid DKP on the item as an upgrade. It would also be really hard to track if someone is going to use an item for an upgrade or just bid normally and then sell the item. Maybe someone bidding DKP on a cloak of flames that they would "only need if I can replace _____" item and then a few weeks later everyone forgets about the cloak and the raider has sold it.

Nimzo
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. No
 

In general, I don't care. This is all minutiae. What concerns me is that the rules seem to change weekly. I can really live with any reasonable rule set, as long as it somewhat static. I realize there are times that rules will get updated, but this often?

#1 yes/no - don't care on this one
#2 seems like extra work. If something is that valuable, it will be bid up. If you want to track what has to start at a higher rate, then sure, yes.
#3 Isn't this already happening? Raiders first, then others...?

My vote is let everything go to roll. If you roll by accident it can be fixed by petitions. Raid more and roll more. Have a few exceptions fir raid critical things like first BOC goes to MT. Take the whoke DKP and loot issue out of the equation. Shake this rat off your shokder