Heroes of Swords and Boards » DKP, Raiding, Recruiting, Switching Mains and Alts discussion

Burta · 4/27/2019 10:19 pm

OK I had several people message me about this. So I want some suggestions and discussion on how we as a guild should handle this. Several people have asked about switching mains and how the DKP system handles that. As well as why alts are allowed to bid against mains even with the double DKP handicap we have in place.

First off I have been told we have people who max out one character then blow all that characters DKP on items or bidding up people when they know they will just be switching mains a few days later. I think the best way to handle this is to limit a main switch to once per person. Once you switch your main you will not be allowed to switch for a second time. So they need to make sure it's something they want to do. Once switched they are locked into that character as a main from then on out.

Next there was concern about allowing the alts and people playing them to bid against mains. Personally I think in time this will even itself out. I know it sucks when a alt is bidding against a main but any main that regularly attends raids should have a ton more DKP to spend to out bid an alt especially with the alt bidding double the DKP for item. The problem i see is the alts running the bids up costing mains more DKP to get the item 1st then when a second one drops they get it for 2 DKP cause no one else needs it... We also need to make sure people are not playing more than 1 character on a raid. It's not really fair to anyone else if one person has his main and a couple alts at a raid getting DKP for 2 or 3 characters and only playing 1. Rule needs to be 1 character per person at a raid.

So what's everyones thoughts on this? Do we limit alt's from bidding against mains completely? I think that will cause a lot of people to just join other guilds with their alts and run them there. Do we want to cut our raid force down by losing the alts to make the mains happy or suck it up and let the alts bid like we have been to keep our numbers up and able to hit the raid targets.

Finally what does everyone think about our closed classes? I've had several people contact me about real life friends wanting to join and even just random characters wanting to join but they play a class we are currently not recruiting for. I hate to lose these players to other guilds. I've been allowing them to join the guild but remain as alts until a main position opens for their class. They can attend raids, build up DKP and everything else but they are limited to the alt rules when it comes to bidding on items as they have to pay the double DKP points. Is this a good idea? Is there something better we can do? Again need suggestions on this and how the guild wants to handle this.

This is the place for ideas and suggestions. Would like to have an answer to this by this Friday before we raid so we can make the change and get everyone used to it.

Last edited by Burta (4/27/2019 10:23 pm)

armor · 4/27/2019 11:00 pm

Perhaps 1 main change per xpac, in event someone wanted to main change to a beastlord or iksar (insert class here). Pending approval from guild leadership, we really do not need a person main changing from a raid critical class.

Last edited by armor (4/27/2019 11:03 pm)

armor · 4/27/2019 11:07 pm

Also, what I have seen in previous guilds, is that a person shows up with their main, not an alt, unless requested to show up in another class. We fill our ranks and what targets we can hit based upon mains, not people randomly showing up in which ever alt they feel like that day.

Bradious Calahan · 4/27/2019 11:11 pm

I'm new and I don't really feel like it's my place to give an input, but Burta asked me to, so here it is...

You guys are letting him run a guild?! Wheeeew...

Bradious Calahan · 4/27/2019 11:16 pm

But seriously, way back when, we always went NBG DKP > main greed rolls > alt rolls (unless asked to bring alt specifically, i.e. lack of clerics or whatever, in which case they rolled as mains) > open rolls.

As for main switches, there is no good way to handle it... case by case basis, I suppose. You should generally have a feel for how serious your members are about their character. Maybe limit switches per expansion? One main switch per expansion? I don't know, that isn't an easy one to handle.

*punctuation

Last edited by Bradious Calahan (4/27/2019 11:17 pm)

Shermen · 4/28/2019 8:37 am

I think alts getting 50 dkp just for showing up is a mistake. I would much rather have a planar geared level 50 toon show up to a raid than a group geared (dare I say cloth or raw-hide wearing) level 46 alt show up and get twice the DKP I eaned for that raid. Perhaps we could allow for alts to earn DKP after they were level 50 and not get the 50 dkp bonus just for leveling a toon to 46 so they can raid, get loot and get bored and start another alt.

As far as alts go, I think alts should ALWAYS get gear after mains.

I know right now we don't have a full raid force and our roster is ever changing. Until that changes, I suspect it would help to have boxes in the raids, unless the person boxes demonstrates a lack of ability to play both effectively. I would rather have one serious player playing one toon with complete focus, rather than someone playing multiple characters and us only getting fractional benefit from each of them. I know the technology today can literally allow people to play at nearly 90% of what a live player would be, but when SHTF I would rather have the complete focus of a main.

As far as closed classes, i don't think it matters until we consistently get 72 people in the raids. Before that, DPS is DPS is DPS. And this current content is largely tank and spank. Kill bosses before clerics run out of mana. With the Mitigation of the Mighty virtually all melee classes (to include tanks and PETS) are out dpsing the casters, with the exception of Phinny and Yael, which are arguably the easiest mobs in this expansion.

I think the 50 dkp bonus time has run out. It was a great idea when we first started as the people that had been raiding had no points and needed something to get them going. Today the 50 point bonus is causing more problems I think.

As far as main changes go, there should probably be an app process if they want to move the DKP over. And by app, I only mean discuss it with leadership before doing it and expecting any special treatment. Changing from a class we need to a class we don't need (and need is very subjective until we hit 72 consistently) probably shouldn't be able to take their DKP with them. If they are going from a class we have plenty of to a class we need more of, then I think they should get their DKP moved over after some threshold such as attaining level 50 and having a few pieces of planar armor (the stuff is groupable, and if you are serious you can get it). Once again, the 50 point bonus is causing problems here too.

Now please keep in mind, I come from a very strict raiding background in raiding guilds, where the only raiders allowed are max level. Any applicants have to be max level. All applicants are judged every week. Class leaders talk to the applicants about expectations and best practices. There is no DKP, if you screw up you find yourself on a loot diet that week. Gear goes to mains first, applicants second and alts only if it would rot otherwise. On live we beat the expansion in a couple of months, farm it weekly (really just 3-4 hours / week) for about 8 months, spend about a month in Beta and then do it again the next year. I don't think HSB wants to do anything like that, so my comments may be completely off base, but you asked!

Last edited by Shermen (4/28/2019 8:40 am)

Burta · 4/28/2019 9:00 am

Ok so what im hearing is mains over alts. So we do away with the double dkp rule for alts and make it they can only bid if no mains want the loot. The 50 free dkp i think still needs to stay. Its a 1 time thing people get so they can bid at the 1st raid they attend. If we're going to mains over alts for loot anyway it wont hurt. We're earning 30 DKP or so per raid so it's not a bad start for each toon and since alts wont be able to bid against mains then it won't matter and everyone will still be equal.

As for main swaping.... There is no easy answer for this... I'm hearing once each expansion... Thats 4 times a year someone can swap. Do we allow them to swap back to a previous main? It just seems to me like this is something very explotable. Someone can swap ever couple of expansions and keep 2 or 3 toons mostly fully geared. What if we allow 2 main swaps total for each player? I'm trying to keep it fair while not allowing someone to play the system.

Last edited by Burta (4/28/2019 9:30 am)

armor · 4/28/2019 9:59 am

Oh, main change cooldown? "What, you main changed 2 months ago? No, you'll have to wait another X amount of months."
Another thing about ALT dkp, i'd think reducing the 50dkp down. Also, perhaps they can still bid, but they earn half rate and are charged double? A bit sever, but at least they could bid against a main. Maybe even put a bid cap (while keeping the double expenditure)?

~~Also~~ we do not really need alt/boxes showing up soaking DKP, and the 2nd account is not doing anything but sitting there afk (with exception of bard boxes).

Last edited by armor (4/28/2019 10:00 am)

Shermen · 4/28/2019 10:31 am

armor wrote:
~~Also~~ we do not really need alt/boxes showing up soaking DKP, and the 2nd account is not doing anything but sitting there afk (with exception of bard boxes).

I can show a lot of parses where that is true, but check this one out from Phinny:

Doze was rocking that one!

armor · 4/28/2019 10:47 am

Man, that guy armor didnt do crap. should fire him!

Shermen · 4/28/2019 2:56 pm

As far as alt swapping goes, I don't think it matters if they want to change alts every week. As long as they can't take their DKP from toon to toon and maybe the bonus is a one time per human, not one time per alt I get to level 46.

Maybe I am missing something, but the bonus points seems to be an incentive to create alts. I get that maybe the bonus points are a recruting tool of sorts, but if someone wants to change their alt every week and earn DKP on that alt without the bonuses, why should we de-incentivize that?

Incentivize moving from an over populated class to an under populated class by having leadership decide if they can take their DKP with them to the new main. If someone wants to "main" switch, then maybe we should have a requirement for them to be a higher level than their old main, or max level if their current main is max level.

Vashazir · 4/28/2019 3:55 pm

If a player switch class to benefit the guild more, this by playing a class we need, leadership should approve that and transfer DKP, or stupid things like yesterday will happen again. I'm not angry or being drama, but that was just stupid imo

I'm here for the team playing and people should have a mindset to help this guild achieve goals, and this is by equiping main characters over alts or being rewarded with an approved DKP transfer if you take the time to grind and play a class we need.

Burta · 4/28/2019 3:56 pm

The 50 point bonus is because i usually don't know who is an alt and who is a main when i'm doing the points. It's basically just 1-1.5 nights of raiding which allows any mains to actually bid on items their 1st night raiding. If some 1 DKP item drops I don't want to let it rot because someone has no DKP to bid on it. As it sits now the DKP points are tied to each character and there is no swapping so even playing a new alt each week limits them in what they can bid on. I think the way we do it now works it will just eventually all balance out as the normal raiders get enough DKP that no alt will ever be able to outbid them. There shouldn't be that many items until kunark now that will result in a bidding war.

Shermen · 4/28/2019 9:58 pm

I completely agree that nothing should rot if someone needs it. Maybe if no mains need it, it goes to /rand, and alts never get dkp unless we asked them to play the alt, in which case they can bid their personal dkp, on raids where they are asked to play the alt.

50 free dkp is great for recruting new members. I think giving it to alts of people that have already gotten 50 free dkp is problematic and will remain so as long as the policy is in place. What if someone joins the guild and already has several level 46+ toons? They just cruise through 8 raids and wind up with 400 DKP more than the people that play a single toon every week.

Aveline · 4/30/2019 1:29 am

My thoughts....for what they are worth.

I personally don't like to bid against alts even if they are paying double DKP the way it is set up now. A few raids ago I ended up paying 60 DKP for an item the alt bought for 2dkp...and that was paying double. The alt is earning DKP at the same rate I am, but on two toons, and eventually I am going to get outbid for something good because the ALT will have way more DKP than I do....and will the same gear I have but purchased at a fraction of the price.

So I will throw out a few things for thought.
1. If you bring more than one toon, that is fine, but prior to the raid you designate which is the main and which is the alt. Only the main earns DKP.
2. If you do that, then we should get rid of the double the DKP for alts and everyone bids the same.

I am not sure how to make it fair for those who do not have multiple computers or accounts. This way, no matter which toon you take, you will earn DKP at the same rate as anyone else. Conversely once I get my mage to 50, I would like to take him to the planes to gear him up. Yes he is an ALT, but he will be just as valuable to the guild at one point as Aveline. If I have Brathlen up there, then Aveline will not be earning DKP just like the boxed players.

I have nothing against boxed players and appreciate them. But I dont have the computer or the time to do two accounts. I just think the system we have is not the best or the fairest way to do it. I am not sure this would be better, but it kind of makes sense to me. Either way, this is an imperfect system that works. When they came out with DKP, I don't think they thought about people having multiple computers or accounts.

I am good either way we do it. Just happy to be in a killer guild with great guys.

Be safe.

Av

GodKing · 5/02/2019 7:58 pm

I would run things differently with alts and dpk than this guild currently is but im not a leader so I'll just say this.

Careful with limiting alt switching. Lean on the more reasonable side of the coin. I say this because think in logical paths. If you block a person from playing the class they want to raid on what is their option? The only option left is to guild remove that class and raid in another guild which helps attrition and potentially main attrition as well.

I feel like enough people chiming in with thoughts on the other stuff so I wont do that unless someone asks.