Heroes of Swords and Boards » DKP and Looting Discussion Thread Please Post By 7-8-19

Jools · 7/08/2019 11:59 am

I just want to add one more point to put this whole topic into perspective then i will leave it alone. The leadership has gone above and beyond to be fair to everyone while at the same time making the hard choice that are required to succeed. It is this leadership that allows us to debate over loot we would not have without it.
Whatever they go with has my 100% support regardless how it affects me individually.

Brutale · 7/08/2019 11:03 pm

Hey everyone,

Since this came up during our last few raids, I am glad we are having an open discussion on our forum to give us a place to share our thoughts, concerns, & feelings on the matter while keeping our focus on the raid while we are raiding.

I submit my comments here for everyone to consider and believe we need more time to discuss before we finalize any changes.

Since Dragon Kill Points (DKP) & Loot can be a source of conflict and drama for guilds, I would request that we avoid using specific names of players and keep our comments constructive in our posts. I recommend using the carpenter's rule as it applies to forum posts; measure twice & cut once, in other words, proof read yourself a few times before posting.

In the end, remember we all have the same goals: Have fun and kill bosses to get fat lewts (improve our gear) so we can progress through content together.

With that said, here are a couple of resources for those who may not have had a lot of prior experience with DKP:

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_kill_points

- DKP Guild vs Loot Council Guild - which one you choose? - Article on WoW Head: https://www.wowhead.com/forums&topic=67151

In my experience, there are 3 main approaches to DKP:

- 1. Silent Bid - Tends to be more casual friendly because no one, in theory, knows who has bid on an item nor the amount of DKP they are willing to spend giving all raiders a chance to bid what the item is worth to them. The winner's bid is deducted from his/her DKP balance.

- 2a. Open Bid - Tends to be casual friendly too and keeps the bids public so there is no question who bid what and who wins; however, letting your competition see what you bid allows them to outbid you as only one bid per player is allowed.

- 2b. Open Bid with Bid Wars - Tends to be less casual friendly allowing players to bid and bid again if they are outbid up to their max DKP (This is what we have been using).

- 3. Fixed DKP Price - Tends to favor medium to hardcore players. In this method, the winner is the player with the most DKP who wants the item and has the price deducted from his/her balance.

There are, of course, other methods of looting: Random Rolls, Need Before Greed, Officer/Loot Council Assigned Loot etc.

In case you find yourself wondering why we need a looting system outside the one built into the game, please consider the following:

- Does the system of loot support the guilds progression goals?

- Would you be fine with loosing a random roll on UBER_ITEM_001 that just dropped off Cazic Thule to a first time raider after raiding Plane of Fear with your guild 10 times before?

- Does the loot system encourage and reward players for raid participation or allow them to skip raids without hurting their ability to loot?

- Does the loot system encourage players to show up on time, participate in clearing trash, participate in the learning process which may involve wipes (XP loss and loss of consumables), or are players not penalized for showing up late, skipping trash, & showing up for bosses only after they are on farm status?

- Does the loot system encourage players to take incremental upgrades (spend DKP) or hold out for one specific item? By skipping incremental upgrades, a player is in effect gimping his/herself by not taking advantage of the benefits associated with the upgrade such as more AC/HP/Mana Pool/Resists etc.

- Does the loot system encourage or discourage players from upgrading themselves outside of raids? As a guild progresses, many guilds assign minimum requirements to join the guild or become a raider to address this issue to a certain degree.

- Does the loot system seem fair considering the other questions above?

- Is the DKP system both simple & easy for players to follow and leaders to manage?

Personally,

I have been in many guilds over the years with different approaches to DKP, and I was a loot council member in two others. In my opinion, loot counsels lead to too much drama as they are too subjective leaving members to question decisions based on their own perceptions of entitlement or favoritism. Trust me, I will never participate in a loot council again as it lead to tell hell such that I could login and not even be able to play/enjoy the game. The only kind of guild a loot council works for is one with members who all maintain 90% attendance or better that has very low attrition and whose members trust the leadership fully without question.

DKP is straight forward, you either have the DKP or you do not.

One thing I do strongly suggest is consistency. DKP rules can be adjusted for future expansions or content, but it would be best to keep rules fixed once they are set.

I believe this is what got a lot of members upset on our previous raid in Hate. Rules changed and some members were in shock at what happened. Right or wrong, the perception was that it wasn't right/fair.

DKP is the most fair and leads to less drama. The drama comes from on the fly changes, not being consistent, and perceived favoritism and injustice.

Sell-able loot that a MAIN Raider or MAIN Member does not need = should go to the guild bank to sell. These items can then be sold to guild members for alts, or public to help fund things we need.

In the case of Rizen and his RBB, he could sell it, and the buyer could be our guild who could then award it for DKP to another member. This would have yielded 2 upgrades for our guild. This is why I thought it was a good idea to keep it in guild, but giving a player DKP back is not a good idea.

W.I.I.F.M (what is in it for me) Many players want to gear alts/boxes and we should find a way to help them do so without driving them to raid with other guilds or blow too much real life money. After all, it was the fact that we had boxed characters, especially clerics and bards, that enabled our guild to progress to the point we have thus far.

We do need our best geared players on content we do not have on farm. On the other hand, farm content can become alt friendly content, or certain items can become open to alts bidding equal and other items reserved for mains for example.

Again, we should NOT provide ways for or encourage players to sell raid drops on the public market. Raid drops are not items a player can get solo. It took the guilds raid force to acquire it, so it belongs to the guild if one of the raiders/members present cannot benefit from it as an upgrade.

I am partial to addressing many of the issues above by awarding DKP per hour spent in raid regardless of how many bosses go down. I like the idea of awarding extra for being early/on time, killing a boss the first time, and being present at the end of the raid.

Need before greed, serves the guild best over all.

Today's member may be tomorrows raider, so why alienate him/her or keep him/her from upgrading his/her gear which increaes their effectiveness in their role? If a member is in the raid we needed them as much as they need us. Futhermore, if a member has no shot at loot over a raider, he/she may decide it isn't worth their time to come and help (WIIFM). That being said, I would recommend we restrict newly recruited members and members who are returning from a significant absence form taking upgrades away from any active members for a 2-3 week period.

Most successful guilds who do actually progress on current content have priority or loot restriction set on items that can be used by multiple classes. This can be worked out & posted in advance based on which class/classes having said item yields the greatest benefit to the guild over all.

I needed to get this in before the deadline and am surely forgetting something, but I need to go to bed. I am happy to discuss this more and might be willing to help with loot organization.

Warm Regards,
Brutale (Mike)

UPDATE: Edited for readability and added a few things 7/9/19 at 11:35am ET.