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8/07/2019 1:35 pm  #1

Proposed Changes to Alts/Boxes DKP & Bidding

Hey everyone,

The guild officers have had discussions regarding some changes we would 
like to see in the guild regarding boxes / alts on raids and raid loot rules.  
Keep in mind that none of these proposed changes are set in stone.  We would like 
to hear everyone's thoughts on these changes or suggestions about how it could be 
done better before implementing any new rules.

Boxes on raids:
Moving forward we are going to have certain boxes, whom are voted on by guild officers,
promoted to raider status.  While all boxes contribute, we are in agreement that some are 
more of a necessity than others as they fill a vital role to the success of our 
raids at this current time.  It's for this reason we believe that these boxes 
should have the opportunity to bid for upgrades along with our main raiders to 
stay current in gear.  

Alts on raids:
There may be times where we lack certain classes for raids and raiders are asked
to play an alt rather than their main to fill that role.  In situations where
this is requested by the raid leader, an alt can bid as a raider for that raid.

Minimum Bids:
We would like to add a minimum bid to loots dropped from Dragons, Gods & other Big Bosses.
For a long time people have been allowed to bid 1 DKP for certain items when no other
people needed it. However, it's a shared opinion that this is somewhat insulting to
everyone putting in the time to takes to kill these bosses.  It requires the effort of ~40 
people about an hour to mobilize, clear trash and defeat the bosses and having the 
resulting loot go for 1 DKP is somewhat unfair. We are proposing a minimum bid of 100 DKP 
to be added for these items to make it worthwhile of the guild's time.  We would also like to add a
minimum bid of 5 DKP when bidding over another bidding member to stop +1 DKP sniping.
If the item is not worth at least 5 DKP more, please stop bidding.

Raid Loot:
We would like to see our regular raiders have more opportunities to spend their
hard earned DKP for raid loot.  To do this, we are considering changing the loot priority
order for bidding from (Raiders > Members > Alts > Bank) to (Raiders > Greed > Bank).
This will give all main raiders the opportunity to bid to upgrade gear first.  If no
mains need the dropped loot, then all raiders will have a chance to bid DKP. Greed
bids can be for anything.  An item for an Alt / Box or to sell for any upgrades you may
personally want.  As it was unneeded by any main raiders, we don't care what is done with
it at this point. If an item fails to be bid on by by both main raiders and greed bids, it
will go to the guild bank.  Items in the guild bank will be purchasable by guild members 
that were not present for the raid and wish to do so at a discounted price for a length of 
time and then sold in the tunnel to fund the guild bank.  Any loot being auctioned as a 
greed item will also have an additional minimum DKP requirement based on the value of the 


8/07/2019 4:06 pm  #2

Re: Proposed Changes to Alts/Boxes DKP & Bidding

I do not usually voice my opinion with everyone and go through my class leader.  In saying that my class leader is on vacation.

My main concern is this minimum of 100dkp for an item.  That's just doesn't seem right to me.  If an item is worth it, it will bring more than adequate dkp for that item.  A lot of items are just a small upgrade anyhow.  When I am on a raid and someone gets something for cheap .ie 1DKP I consider that they have waited on something so that they don't have to spend such high dkp for an item.  I understand that someone may have, at first, spent more dkp for the item when they got it, but it was there choice to spend it.  We all earn dkp at the same rate and we should be able to chose at what rate to spend it, not have a minimum standard.  As for a minimum bump of 1dkp I have not seen that every often and it usually does not take a lot of time, it's like an auction, but I haven't seen anything for 1,2,3,4,5,6 and so on, as to take up time.  Last raid I was outbid by 1dkp on something that when for 867dkp.  The person was smart and looked up my dkp and bid one above.  It did not make me mad or insult me because they could have made a bigger jump if they wanted anyhow.  The should not have to spend 5 dkp more instead of 1dkp more.  We did not get to 866 by 1 at a time anyhow.  

"It requires the effort of ~40 people about an hour to mobilize, clear trash and defeat the bosses and having the 
resulting loot go for 1 DKP is somewhat unfair. We are proposing a minimum bid of 100 DKP 
to be added for these items to make it worthwhile of the guild's time."

Please don't feel it is a waste of time.  Normally a person getting something for 1dkp has been there for those clearings and just waited to spend their dkp the cheapest way they can.  I chose to raid to see more content of the game, maybe get some loot for upgrades.

As for alts.  Everyone has alts in this game.  I personally planned to bring my alt on a raid soon.  In that, I know that if something drops or my alt my chances are good at getting it because we are re-hashing raids we have done over and over.  That's not a bad thing.  We get better with practice at everything and bringing in alts allows us to see what other classes have to do during the raid.  Personally I will never have an alt cleric because their job is a pita.  Learning rotations and such I think would be an endeavor.   if an alt is needed for the raid, then the alt should be able to bid as a raider for that raid.  If we are too low on any class, we can't raid the content we want, and having an alt gets us to be able to do what we want and it is good to have alts.

Boxing in raids I have no problem with because that person normally boxes and is able to keep up.  Used to three box on regular play and two box on raids.  I knew I couldn't three box the raids.  Loot entitlement from boxing is kind of a nil question.  Raid leaders and class leaders will know if a boxing duo is not working out and should speak with the boxer one on one.  

I think the system that we have right now is good for the content that is currently available.  Having said that I have only brought my main and never played an alt or dealt with DKP as an alt, but I would like for my alt to be able to enjoy the same looting system we have now.

Thanks, and this is just my opinion, not trying to offend anyone.

Last edited by Getrdone (8/07/2019 4:06 pm)


8/07/2019 4:34 pm  #3

Re: Proposed Changes to Alts/Boxes DKP & Bidding

I understand wanting to tighten up guild rules surrounding loot. However, I don't see how these changes help us as a guild.

We are having a problem filling the raid roster. Two weeks ago, attendance was so low that we couldn't finish Trakanon. I'm sure low attendance has many reasons behind it, but I have no doubt that prior controversial loot changes caused us to lose raiders.

We have to ask ourselves as a guild are these changes important and are they necessary. Who do these changes benefit.

1. Boxes on raids
Disagree with having special treatment for some boxed characters. I especially disagree with allowing them to compete with raiders of the same class.

2. Alts on raids
Giving special treatment to "special" alts to bid against raiders is confusing and goes against the core rule set.

3. Minimum bids
Not opposed totally to having minimum starting bid on tradeable items. No drop items should go for 1 dkp rather than rotting.

4. Greed
Don't agree with having greed rolls above members. Removing members from the loot all together is an insulting blow to all members of the guild. Promotion to raider has been entirely inconsistent. Do away with raider / member distinction. This is elitist and now we'd like to abuse that raider position in a loot grab. DKP by itself really eliminates the need to have this tiered looting system.

I've heard the reasons behind it and they do not apply:

Determining who can raid when we have over 72 online.. not a problem in the forseeable future.

Determining who gets epics first? Elitist and most epic drops now go to guild bank or rot.

Making sure a new member doesn't snag a cloak of flames on the first raid? DKP takes care of that.

Frankly I'm embarrassed to explain this elitist system to new members and tell them that there is no telling when, how, or why they may finally be allowed to roll on loot?


8/07/2019 4:44 pm  #4

Re: Proposed Changes to Alts/Boxes DKP & Bidding

For what it is worth.....
My opinion is that if we have alts that are raid ready, then that is good for the guild. There will be times when they will be needed and used. Why have raiders and members? If someone has 5 level 60 raid set toons, is that not better than only having one? And if they want to spend all their DKP, which they earned by being there, go towards all their toons why not? If I am an enchanter and I am competing against another enchanter who wants an item, but they have split their DKP up outfitting the other alts, then I am more than likely going to get the item I want because all my DPK is going towards my main while theirs is split 5 ways. If they are spending 5 times the amount of time on a raid as I am, then they deserve the item I wanted. Just my .02.....but then I don't see a huge issue with the way we have been doing it either. 

I hate to see this become an issue to begin with. I have been in more guilds that have broken up....and 100% of the time the breakup was caused by raid loot. Lets not let that happen here. I genuinely like all you guys.


8/07/2019 4:58 pm  #5

Re: Proposed Changes to Alts/Boxes DKP & Bidding

I don't mind alts being able to get geared, but it shouldn't be on an even tier with a main.

Again the raider/member distinction is elitist.

Players will come and go. Real life happens, illness, moves, jobs, relationships. Burn out. New games. Moving to other guilds.

We need to stop pretending that our "raiders" will always be there. People leave for various and valid reasons.

We need to constantly cultivate the next generation of raiders. We need to treat new members with respect, treat them as a part of our gaming family, and make sure they have a good time on raids and they will keep coming back.



8/07/2019 5:02 pm  #6

Re: Proposed Changes to Alts/Boxes DKP & Bidding

Making more controversial changes is disruptive and will only serve us to lose more of our raiders, each of which is important to the success of this guild.

There is nothing wrong with the current DKP system. I'd like to not see us lose any more raiders over short sighted loot changes.

Not to mention it may hinder efforts to recruit and retain new members.

Last edited by Audubon (8/07/2019 5:06 pm)


8/07/2019 5:20 pm  #7

Re: Proposed Changes to Alts/Boxes DKP & Bidding

For any DKP system to be fair it needs to be consistent and unbiased. Having special exceptions to the rules only for certain people is a potential source of bias. Also allowing some alts priority is inconsistent. Introducing bias and inconsistency to our loot system, not to mention making it difficult to manage, will be detrimental as a whole.



8/07/2019 6:05 pm  #8

Re: Proposed Changes to Alts/Boxes DKP & Bidding

I tend to agree with the input on this thread. If you are on a raid, you should be able to bid on loot and the DKP points will favor those who attend more consistently. I also think the Raider/Member distinction is silly.
Alts should be able to bid on stuff too, but mains should get first stab, that is reasonable
The minimum 100DKP is a little over the top. I have been conservative in bidding (patient) in letting others get stuff first expecting to get things cheaper for waiting longer. This 100DKP minimum penalizes people who waited or perhaps don't get the opportunity to be on as much. We are mostly older adults with families and careers. We play for fun and camaraderie as our schedules permit. This rule penalizes us for no logical reason. The greed bids seem counter productive, unless nobody in a given class needs it - If no bidders, then greed seems reasonable on tradeable stuff only. The no-drop 1DKP bid is fair. Something else that would speed things up would be to loot all tradeable stuff and do bidding at the end of the raid rather than stop and burn up time with each kill. It would also keep people there until the end of the raid if they wanted to bid on something. If rules get too complicated, people will leave and new folks won't join. There are plenty of other options out there. We need to preserve the great culture we have if we want to grow and flourish.


8/07/2019 6:49 pm  #9

Re: Proposed Changes to Alts/Boxes DKP & Bidding

The reality Audubon is that a few boxes here contribute a lot more to the raids than actual members or raiders, no one can argue with that, it's a simple fact. And the other fact is that we really NEED these boxes on raids.That is the reason of the proposed change.

Last edited by Vashazir (8/07/2019 6:56 pm)


8/08/2019 8:12 am  #10

Re: Proposed Changes to Alts/Boxes DKP & Bidding

I have no issue with there being a raid box category that allows them to be geared before other boxes and alts however, I do not agree with an alt or box getting loot preference over a full main in any situation. My preferred loot chain would be as follows : Main > Raid Box > Alt/Box. To me the idea of calling a category greed is not helpful. I do think that people should be able to spend their points how they choose and while I would never bid against another player with the intent of selling that item for PP, I understand it is a fact of life in the game today.

I get the reasoning behind having a distinction between raiders and regular members and while I do think it is a way to protect people that have put in the time to become a raider, I feel that any loot "lost" to a member that might not stick with the guild long term over a raider is not enough to have the rule in place. My instinct is to trust the newer player and do everything possible to encourage long term membership even if it means getting burned a little here and there. I prefer to use the recruit tag for a set period of time or until a certain amount of dkp is earned, then you are a member, equal to other members in bidding.

I am not sure how I feel about the minimum bid issue, my first reaction is that it is too high but as we award more points per kill than any system I have been a part of, this issue is hard for me to gauge. I feel like maybe a starting bid of 10 might be more appropriate.

One option might be to charge a "box fee" to any alt or box that is not designated a raid box to help those boxes that perform core functions on raids to acquire loot more quickly. I have seen boxes charged the bid x2 dkp in some guilds, the raid boxes could be exempt from that.

I trust that the guild leadership has the best interest of the guild in mind while crafting the loot rules and am grateful that members are allowed input on the decision.


8/08/2019 8:30 am  #11

Re: Proposed Changes to Alts/Boxes DKP & Bidding

I like most of it but see an issue with the 1dkp thing.  There are cases where members are within 5 points of each other and not being able to bid by one denies the highest dkp holder the item if the other person puts in the 5 factor bid before him, maybe we add the exception to allow for you to go All In with all your dkp to remedy that?
100 minimum seems high. I would set it as what we typically earn in a single raid. 40 dkp, no one can really complaining thats too low or too high.
Raid box makes sense to me. Hoolio is not much help as far as boxes go and i only bringing him along cause i hate to see rots. So i dont give a shit what penalties he faces and i clearly accept other more important boxes should be in a different category than him.
That said, its a slippery slope to hinder people's alt progression as you try to balance it against main who hate other people playing alts.


8/10/2019 4:31 pm  #12

Re: Proposed Changes to Alts/Boxes DKP & Bidding

Boxes on raids: Granting special compensation to some box toons seems fair on the surface, but there is a lot of room for abuse.  To be honest, no box toon is played as well as when a player concentrates on one toon.  I believe all boxes on raids should be counted as alts.  If a player wishes to contribute less with their alt because of this, so be it.

Alts on raids: It seems fair on the surface that if a player is asked by a guild leader to play an alt, they should be compensated like a main, but again there is much room for abuse.  I think regular rules should apply whenever alts are played.  If a player is asked to play an alt and they don't want to, they can refuse and play their main. 

We need to quit overcomplicating everything.  If we don't have enough players showing for raids, it might be because we're driving them away with all the loot changes.

Minimum Bids: If you don’t like clearing trash, engaging mobs, and raid effort, maybe this is not the game for you!  It’s not necessary to add a minimum bid for loot. If a player waits, and gets loot for 1 dkp, that’s good for them.  If we're gearing up new players in older zones with 1 dkp loot, we can dress them up faster and get to the newer content.  Again, let’s quit overcomplicating everything.  It’s a game, folks.

I don’t see that we’re having a lot of problems with running up bids 1 dkp at a time, most of the time, people run it up at 5 dkp per bid.  Again, no need to make a rule about it.  Fewer rules for the win!

Raid Loot: I think the progression should be Raiders, Members & Alts, Bank, Greed.

Last edited by Skyblue (8/10/2019 6:34 pm)


8/11/2019 9:57 am  #13

Re: Proposed Changes to Alts/Boxes DKP & Bidding

=16.25pxAll these rule change suggestions are terrible except for the issue with boxed characters.  No minimums are needed for DKP bidding.  Our minimum bid is already 1.  Either you want the item or you don't.  Just because 10 people, had bidding wars 4 different times, doesn't mean you have to spend a decided minimum above 1 dkp set by leadership. Not an issue in anyway whatsoever.  This benefits absolutely everyone and is fair.  You don't take part in a bidding war you might never see the item. This is literally an absolute win. 

Item prices are already set by anyone in the auction. Example.  I bid 679 for a fine velvet cloak first bid.  I told every single ranger who wanted it, that was what i valued the item at.  Whether they had the DKP to outbid me is not my issue or a guild problem.  I was outbid by ONE.  That is the system.  It worked. It was fair. 

What needs to stop.  Boxed characters sitting somewhere waiting to loot from outside the raid.  Be there the entire time with all characters or miss out.  Only exception would be leadership requests for characters join the raid. You are already logged in on time. Get all toons there at start or shortly after start or stay out. 

Also the time and place for complaints during raid times, IS THIS FORUM AND NOT DURING A RAID IN DISCORD!


Last edited by ryarch (8/11/2019 10:02 am)


8/12/2019 6:26 pm  #14

Re: Proposed Changes to Alts/Boxes DKP & Bidding

OK Going to reply to some of the comments on the voting thread here so we don't clutter up that thread discussing these things. 

Scagnetti - The boxed raider status we are suggesting will only be allowed to bid after main raiders. So for voting on the #1 thing the loot order would be Raider > Boxed Raided > Member > Alt > Bank. Main raiders would still have priority.

Kutsu - The member status was put into place because certain classes were capped with too many players already.  People wanted to still join the guild to play with there friends and family and occasionally raid.  We were thinking ahead and hoping that at some point eventually we would have enough Raiders and Mains that would come to raids then we would eventually have it where alts wouldn't be allowed.  And even further down the road we would have enough raiders for the raids that we wouldn't need members at all on the raids.  The problem with everyone being made a raider is what happens when we have a raid where 20 clerics show up all with the raider title? We don't need that many on a raid that's why we had the raider status so we could only promote the max number we needed for each raid.  Otherwise we could run into the problem with too many of one class showing up for a raid.

Yurinary - I completely disagree with reducing DKP or having it decay over time. I see DKP just like money. When you work a job you are paid for your time same as raiding.  You earned the DKP and it shouldn't be taken away from you.  If someone wants to sack it up to gurantee that 1 or 2 rare upgrades then that should be their right to do so.  If they don't want to spend it then they shouldn't be forced to.  I've been on every raid except 1 since before this guild formed.  When a new expansion comes out I shouldn't lose my DKP I've saved just so some newbie who's only been in the guild a month can have a shot at equipment I could use. I've proven myself as attending every raid we do and we know the stuff I get will be used for the guild. Why should we let new members have an equal shot at loot over people who's been here forever? Let them raid and earn dkp and save it up until they get enough to outbid the long term members or if they can't let them have the scraps we don't want at a much lower DKP cost then what the old school people paid.  As for the haste item, yeah your best bet is to level your guy to 46 and come to sky and grab a belt from there. RBB and CoF's are going to be grabbed up by every melee member and alt on the raid. If a raider or main don't need them then someone's gonna run an alt for the night just to bid on it. As I said before raiding is not a time to pad your bank account so the only other option we would have is once all the raiders and mains have them then loot it for the guild bank and sell it at a discount to guildies so people don't abuse the loot system.

Razzax - Assigning each item a DKP value isn't going to happen. Thats just way too much work to keep track of.  We already limit certain items to certain classes and that's hard enough to keep track of, let alone trying to assign them a value.  We want to keep everything as simple as possible.

Audubon - I don't think promoting certain boxes to raider status would be favortism since it wouldn't just be the leader's alts.  These are alts that we need to have to raid in Velious.  If they don't have the AC or resist to stand up to the mobs AoE then we can't take the mob. I think Beerd was talking about bards mostly and maybe 1 or 2 other boxed toons that do things for the raid that no one else wants too.  As for a timeline for when people get promoted to raider my concern is if we do that what happens when we get a ton of one class that become raiders? The raider status was to balance out the raids so that each class only had the number of people we needed for a 72 man raid. How do we say who can and can't go on a raid if we let everyone who wants to be a raider be a raider? We get 20 clerics all wanting to raid now we got to eliminate other raiders from other classes to get them all in. 

Lucianna - I agree we need actual butts in the seats insteaed of alts, but....  At this time that's not an option for us.  It's either make do with the boxes/alts or not raid. Some of this stuff we can not do without them.  I think it's more of a 1 class thing mostly with bards.  I like the idea of them being able to bid after the main raiders which is what was voted on. A main raider would still get 1st dibs but then the boxed bard after that. But on the flip side I'm not a bard so what loot specifically are we talking about them wanting to bid on? I think most the junk stuff is already going to them since mains already have it.  What boss or dragon loot do they need for velious?  As for the spells we made the call to give the spells to people who could actually use them 1st. It wasn't to single any one person out. We didn't want someone taking a level 60 spell at let's say level 55 and then not using it for a month while they messed around and not level.  I'm not sure of an easy solution to this other then to maybe say you have to be within 1 level of the spell to get it?  It won't be an issue until Velious comes out as right now I've been giving spells on raids to the 1st person who sends me a tell requesting it when they drop.  Do you have a better idea on what we can do to help with this? We could always DKP them...

Skyblue - I agree with you 100% on the rule changes.  It seems every few weeks someone comes up with an idea to do something different and wants to discuss and vote on changes.  As we can see from this past week it never turns out well.  People get heated and say things to others that may be uncalled for.  Everyone has an idea how to make the game better for them and most the time it's not always best for others.  I'm really pushing to not make any other rule changes until we have a MAJORITY of the guild complaining about stuff. I'm talking 20-30 members. Lately it's been 4 or 5 people coming to us with ideas and wanting stuff change.  From what I can see here most people don't like changes.  If it's working don't fix it.  It may not be perfect but it gets the job done without pissing a bunch of people off.


10/07/2021 1:14 am  #16

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11/17/2021 12:50 pm  #17

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